Coulter-Stalking Liberal Screams “Help Me!” During Arrest

If you ever wanted an example as to why women who marry conservative men have better and more orgasms, this video is all you’ll ever need to see.

Reports from various sources reveal that Mike Tracey; student at The College of New Jersey AND vice-President of the College Democrats stormed the stage that Ann Coulter was standing on during a speech more than a couple of times and was repeatedly warned by campus security.

Of course, he had to test the waters a final time and was removed from the speech and arrested.  The video; only 38 seconds long, shows no police brutality whatsoever and also explains the liberal way of turning virtually ANYTHING into “torture.”

Reports also indicate that the parents of this ninny are pissed and are fighting to get the charges removed. 

Ladies and Gentlemen I present to you one of the future William Ayers of the world.

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83 thoughts on “Coulter-Stalking Liberal Screams “Help Me!” During Arrest

  1. “Ladies and Gentlemen I present to you one of the future William Ayers of the world.”

    I forsee something different happening:

    He’ll graduate. He’ll get a job. He’ll earn a salary that aligns with his college education. Then he will see this on his first paycheck for an entry level career position that pays $40,000 per year:

    Monthly Gross Pay $3333.33

    Single 2 exemptions for withholding.

    Federal Income Tax 305.58
    Soc. Sec. 206.67
    Medicare 48.33
    New Jersey Inc. Tax 66.25
    SUI/SDI 30.83
    FLI 3.00

    Net Pay $2,672.67

    Total taxes per month $660.66.

    So will begin the process of morphing from a liberal into a conservative. I give him 3-5 years after graduating to sing the praises of Ann Coulter.

  2. “So will begin the process of morphing from a liberal into a conservative”

    So the sole difference between liberals and conservatives is greed? A bit of a simplistic, some might even say cartoonish, view of things huh, John?

    I look forward to Stevie’s lame rebuttal about how it doesn’t matter to me because I don’t pay taxes and how he works 14 hours a day. Heh.

  3. “I look forward to Stevie’s lame rebuttal about how it doesn’t matter to me because I don’t pay taxes and how he works 14 hours a day. Heh.”

    I could do that, or you can just re-watch the video again which is perfectly in line with your basic behavior, Jay.

    When you do work and pay taxes, your contributions to this discussion will be of much more value.

  4. No, Jay, contrary to popular belief it is NOT patriotic to want to pay higher taxes. Ever hear of the Boston Tea Party? Since the inception of the United States of America, people have loathed paying higher taxes. To suggest that patriotism hinges on paying taxes is tantamount to saying we should still be British.

    Moron.

  5. “So the sole difference between liberals and conservatives is greed? A bit of a simplistic, some might even say cartoonish, view of things huh, John?”

    Well Jay it is not so much greed. But it can be. Here is how I completed my morphing.

    When I was in college I was very much on the left. Being involved in the campus gay alliance was a big contributor to that. Being raised by lefty parents helped too.

    I got my first real paycheck after I graduated and the tax load was big. But I kept telling myself, ‘Taxes are what we pay for a civilized society.”

    Then over the next five years I started to pay closer attention to where my taxes were going. After all, now it was my taxes at work. It’s different when it is not your money.

    The local library was a glorified homeless shelter. I guess those librarians felt it was fine to ignore the loitering laws. I was fine with homeles people reading books or newpapers in the libaray. I was not fine with them sleeping there and using the restroom as a place to take a bath.

    At my church there were three people on SSI for clinical depression. One of my sisters has that illness and she works. I guess the only difference between her and them was she had real job skills. I’d take SSI over burger flipping too.

    Then I wanted to move and found a brand spanking new apartment complex with all of the bells and whistles I wanted. Yee haw I thought. This place was VERY nice! It was posh excellence at its best. The place was palatial. The apartments were outstanding!!!!

    I did not make enough to qualify to rent there. But I made way too much to get a low income unit. The developer was required to set aside 10% of the units in order to get the project approved. Nothing works like legalized extortion. I thought how amazing people get rewarded for screwing up and punished for doing right and I help pay for it.

    Then came the tech boom. Rents started skyrocketing. I was immune because I moved up the Peninsula years earlier to get out of that. But my coworkers in Silicon Valley endured as many as three $100 or more rent hikes in one year. But, unlike me their gasoline bills were far less because they did not have a 20 mile one way commute to the office.

    I helped two of these coworkers move from one bedroom apartments into studio apartments they could better afford. Talk about dowardly mobile people. College educated, professionally employed, well paid, and being forced to trade down to afford nicer things.

    That Jay, broke my back. That was the last straw. I can totally get having to postpone gratification and I do. But having to trade down in life so bums can camp out in the library, poor people can live in deluxe apartments on Section 8, and people with no skills can convince a psychiatrist they can’t work all added up over time. So in 1994 I registered as a Republican.

  6. “No, Jay, contrary to popular belief it is NOT patriotic to want to pay higher taxes. Ever hear of the Boston Tea Party? Since the inception of the United States of America, people have loathed paying higher taxes. To suggest that patriotism hinges on paying taxes is tantamount to saying we should still be British.”

    I agree Mel. When the American Revolution started, the colonists had some of the lowest tax rates in the entire world.

    Before the Civil War, some of the wealthiest people on Earth lived in Mississippi. While the Civil War did not start over taxes, expropriation of assets without compensation was a reason for the war. If Buchanan was willing to compensate slave owners for their property then history might have gone a different direction.

    So America was born out of a war over taxes and fought another one over social engineering.

  7. The point that Jay missed, as all liberals do, is that people should be able to keep more of their money to invest into business, their future retirement, and donations.

    Jay only sees greed because he thinks that all money should be distributive to make all people happy.

    Jay, send a few bucks to all of us online since you can’t equate or understand that having money can lead to opportunities to helping others.

    Jay, so I suppose that during the campaign you called Obama and told him to decrease the amount of money he spent on his campaign because he was being greedy. You know, the largest campaign contributions in history.

    No, that wouldn’t happen, would it Jay, you liberal ninny (thanks for the word, Steve).

  8. Mel:

    Fuck yourself, you fat dyke. Who mentioned patriotism? You have this inane habit of interjecting points that are on your mind but weren’t made by the opposing party. Strange, but par for the course from a community college grad such as yourself.

    Devil Dog, something tells me that I’m in a considerably higher tax bracket than you based on your moronic screed. Nice.

  9. “Fuck yourself, you fat dyke.”

    Now THAT was intelligent. And very tolerant, too, might I add. You argued that taxes equal greed, a point several Democrats try to make; some of the highest-ranking Democrats in the land have more than once tried to argue that paying higher taxes is patriotic. It’s NOT off-topic, Jay, you just can’t stand it when a conservative thinker is correct.

    You have a remarkably infantile habit of trying to nullify arguments here by claiming either racism or irrelevance, neither of which have been true yet. And I say again, even if my diploma had been from a community college, it would have been something. Since it was from a major university, I’ll have the last laugh.

  10. Jay, although I don’t agree with Obama when he said that dropping out of school isn’t ‘American’ (I believe some people are and were content to drop out of school to learn a TRADE), I believe that some people (namely you, Jay) are product of a college education and should stay sooooo far away from secondary education.

    Jay, I also love ‘moronic screed’, but you proved my point.

    I will say an extra prayer for you tonight! (I know how much that annoys liberals to bring God into the picture.)

    Thanks, Jay!!!!!

  11. I see this guy like all the drunks on “Cops” playing it up for the cameras so it looks like he is being abused. His folks want the arrest erased from his record? Not surprising but not right when he was warned and was doing something he knew could get him arrested. I believe people have a right to peacefully demonstrate and even disobey but they have to be willing to accept the consequences. Finally, he is NOT the next Ayers. Ayers got other people to do his dirty work for him.

  12. “I see this guy like all the drunks on “Cops” playing it up for the cameras so it looks like he is being abused. His folks want the arrest erased from his record? Not surprising but not right when he was warned and was doing something he knew could get him arrested.”

    I favor erasing his arrest record. As his community service he can do volunteer work for the College Republicans. If the College Republicans are satisified with his service then this all goes away.

  13. “I will say an extra prayer for you tonight! (I know how much that annoys liberals to bring God into the picture.)”

    Says the guy with ‘Devil’ in his name (yes, I know it’s a term used for Marines, it’s still kind of ironic). No, what annoys liberals is the fact that conservatives try to lay claim to a monopoly on religion and spirituality while simultaneously partaking in some of the most unholy actions I can think of or imagine: spreading lies in order to start an illegitimate war, torturing people, enacting policies that merely serve to hurt the poor even more, being completely enamored with money. These are all things that directly go against the teachings of Christ. I am a Christian and a liberal, and I happen to feel that the religious right gives Christians a bad name.

  14. “I am a Christian and a liberal, and I happen to feel that the religious right gives Christians a bad name.”

    Who is the “religious right?” To me, when someone uses religion as you just did to promote their crazy ideologies, that is wrong.

    Republicans have never used religion as an argument to their ideals. We simply know that mentioning “God” tends to tick off the left, so it makes it more fun for us.

    So what you will do now is come back and tell me that based on a discussion some Muslim had with another (he-said, she-said) that Bush went to war because God told him.

    Now without a direct quote or proof of that quote, tell me as the sweet Christian boy you are, “what would Jesus do?”

  15. “Republicans have never used religion as an argument to their ideals”

    Are you kidding me right now? That’s a joke, right?

    “Now without a direct quote or proof of that quote, tell me as the sweet Christian boy you are, “what would Jesus do?””

    Well, he wouldn’t do anything on that list. That should be enough…

  16. “enacting policies that merely serve to hurt the poor”

    I know, and to think that AFTER the Community Reinvestment Act and AFTER mucking up Monica’s dress, Bill Clinton STILL showed up to church with his imaginary 50-pound Bible.

    Thank you for admitting though that Christianity is liberal. It’s the most liberal religion one can find, so that is quite refreshing to get out of you.

  17. “I know, and to think that AFTER the Community Reinvestment Act and AFTER mucking up Monica’s dress, Bill Clinton STILL showed up to church with his imaginary 50-pound Bible.”

    What does Bill Clinton have to do with anything? If you’re honestly trying to call Bill Clinton a liberal, you’re crazy.

  18. “These are all things that directly go against the teachings of Christ.”

    They sure are. They are against the teachings of Christ just like abortion.

    I agree the Right doesn’t have a monopoly on religion. The Left has its own contradictory positions regarding religion too.

  19. “They sure are. They are against the teachings of Christ just like abortion.”

    Actually, John, I get what you’re saying, but in contrast to point, Jesus never said a word regarding abortion, just like he never said a word regarding homosexuality.

    I just find it odd that so many people spend extraordinary amounts of time and energy to ensure the forbidding of an act not explicitly forbidden in the Bible, yet they spend comparably little time fostering the actions that again and again they are explicitly commanded to undertake: to save the hungry, naked, thirsty, and sick as Matthew 25 tells us to.

  20. “yet they spend comparably little time fostering the actions that again and again they are explicitly commanded to undertake: to save the hungry, naked, thirsty, and sick as Matthew 25 tells us to.”

    I agree. I am involved in my parish outreach to the homeless shelter. I make a dish for dinner once a month and I toss in $20 for the Bingo game fund. Other churches handle other days of the month.

    I figure on a monthly basis this costs me $35 per month or $420 per year. I don’t cheap out and make a pasta dish. I go all out and make something nice like stuffed pork tenderloin or yankee pot roast. That won’t feed an entire shelter of people. But, other people from the parish make food. Everyone gets something nice to eat.

    I do not think $420 of my income taxes goes to help the poor. I suspect it is much less.

    Not all of us conservatives are money hungry greedy people who are heartless. But many of us believe we can help the poor and needy in ways that the government can’t.

    The shelter we volunteer at helps people. It does not enable people. Homeless people who seek out this shelter have to be willing to change their lives. This means getting off the drugs, learning a skill, getting a job, and eventually finding a home. Assistance at all levels of the process is provided.

    What I like about this place is it does not depend on the government with the government’s rules, regulations and red tape. It’s lean and efficient. One sadly common thing that happens are people who are working full time and they are homeless. The shelter allows these people to live there for free, bank up paychecks for an apartment deposit, and then move out. I don’t think the government would have a program like that for a single woman making $30K a year. But this shelter does.

    In addition our parish owns rental property in great neighborhoods with great schools. We rent to people and we base the rent on what they earn. So we have upwardly mobile people with great paying jobs that pay market rate rent. We also have the working poor who pay a sliding scale rent they can afford. Like the homeless shelter we are lean and efficient. Our prime rule for all tenants is no illegal activity of any kind. One stike and out you go. I doubt the government would have a program like that. But we do and we enforce it.

  21. That video is funny.

    I found this forum called websites that should be banned on the Obama Forum and added a few as a joke and to see if some of us could get more site traffic. Yours was one of them. I try to help.

    http://theobamaforum.com/showthread.php?t=1808

    I think the whole site might be one giant sarcastic joke though since it looks like half the people on there are trolls.

    So sorry if that is the people that show up from there.

  22. Hey, ROBERT, religious organizations don’t hurt the poor.

    Yeah, I hear athiests every Christmas yelling from the rooftops, “Let’s band together and feed the homeless.

    Yeah, right!

  23. Oh but they do want to help people, they just think it’s all the governments responsibility. That’s why they don’t have a problem with the government taking you tax money to send however they feel like, because we all know those government programs to help people work so well.

  24. “Hey, ROBERT, religious organizations don’t hurt the poor.”

    I never said they did. It might behoove you in the future to read things a little more thoroughly…

  25. Robert, when it comes down to it, you want the government to provide everything.

    People want their rights but without responsbilities.

  26. “Robert, when it comes down to it, you want the government to provide everything.”

    No I don’t. I just recognize that they have an obligation to “promote the general welfare” of its citizens. You obviously do not.

  27. It’s the term “general welfare” supposed to refer to something that helps everyone, not a small percentage of people?

    Isn’t taking something away from one person (taxes) to give to another person only helping the person on the receiving end?

  28. “Isn’t taking something away from one person (taxes) to give to another person only helping the person on the receiving end?”

    Not at all. A strong middle class is better for everyone in the end. It’s why I don’t get when conservatives bitch about stuff like that, and only want tax cuts for the wealthy. If you have a middle class that’s flourishing, the economy grows, and everyone does better. On the flip side, when the middle class starts sliding into poverty, the economy as a whole suffers, and even the rich begin to feel it.

  29. It’s the rich that create jobs. And yes I do not have a problem with tax cuts for the rich because they pay a higher percentage than other people. I think the idea of either a flat tax or the fair tax if the best system and I disagree with the graduated tax system we currently have.

    The more money the rich have the more jobs they can create, it’s that simple. Giving people welfare does not create jobs and it doesn’t make them middle class. What it does is make them dependent of government handouts and if you ever lived in the inner city you’ll understand that it creates a culture of dependence where whole families live for generations off of welfare.

    The more money anyone has to keep in their own pockets the more they have to invest in new business, or send their kids to school.

    The government is not a charity organization and every time is tries to act like one the results have been terrible and most of the money ends up getting wasted. The government has spent trillions of dollars on the war on poverty and how has that been working out?

    The government thinks it knows what is best for you, yet the politicians are not the ones who end up getting hurt from their actions or ideas, it is the public that ends up hurt from their attempts at social experimentation.

    “The presumed irrationality of the public is a pattern running through many, if not most or all, of the great crusades of the anointed in the twentieth century–regardless of the subject matter of the crusade or the field in which it arises. Whether the issue has been ‘overpopulation,’ Keynesian economics, criminal justice, or natural resource exhaustion, a key assumption has been that the public is so irrational that the superior wisdom of the anointed must be imposed, in order to avert disaster. The anointed do not simply happen to have a disdain for the public. Such disdain is an integral part of their vision, for the central feature of that vision is preemption of the decisions of others.” – Tomas Sowell

  30. “It’s the rich that create jobs.”

    No, they don’t. Never in the history of mankind has a rich person created a single job. Demand creates jobs. No rich person has ever hired somebody out of the goodness of their heart. They hire people to make money for them, and even then, they pay them less than they will make for the company. That’s how it works. That’s how it’s always worked. There has to be a demand for something in order to be able to supply people with it.

    “I think the idea of either a flat tax or the fair tax if the best system and I disagree with the graduated tax system we currently have.”

    The fair tax is anything but fair to those who aren’t rich. It’s a regressive tax system that wouldn’t work, and that the proponents of it know wouldn’t work, which is why they call it fair, in order to trick people into supporting it. It’s not at all fair to working class people and people who, by and large, spend 100% of their income.

    “The more money the rich have the more jobs they can create, it’s that simple”

    No it’s not. Pick up a book sometime. I suggest ‘The Wealth of Nations’ as a starting point.

    “Giving people welfare does not create jobs and it doesn’t make them middle class. What it does is make them dependent of government handouts and if you ever lived in the inner city you’ll understand that it creates a culture of dependence where whole families live for generations off of welfare.”

    Hm, perhaps if you bothered to understand the slide into poverty a great many in this country have made, you’d know that a decrease in wages is the reason for growing poverty. It’s that gap between the rich and the poor that’s widening, and that people like you (who I can only assume are not rich) advocate for, even though there is absolutely no benefit for you to do so. You’re arguing against your own best interests, and it’s both worthy of a chuckle and pity.

    “The more money anyone has to keep in their own pockets the more they have to invest in new business, or send their kids to school.”

    Theoretically, yes, but when tax cuts benefit the top 1/10 of 1%, they aren’t doing anything with that money except hiding it in Swiss bank accounts or putting it in money market accounts. Like I’ve said a million times before, if tax cuts are a priority, then they should go to those people who spend 100% of their income. It will provide a short term stimulus.

    “The government is not a charity organization and every time is tries to act like one the results have been terrible and most of the money ends up getting wasted”

    Yeah, like in the 1930’s, when it lifted an entire nation out of a depression. You mean like that?

    “The government has spent trillions of dollars on the war on poverty and how has that been working out?”

    Actually more successfully that a fruitless “war on terror”. At least when a Democrat is in office anyway. I wouldn’t look to the last eight years for worthwhile statistics on that, though, seeing as how poverty increased almost two percent under George Bush. Interestingly enough, under Clinton, the poverty rate went from 13.6% to 9.6%. Isn’t that odd how that works out?

    “The government thinks it knows what is best for you, yet the politicians are not the ones who end up getting hurt from their actions or ideas, it is the public that ends up hurt from their attempts at social experimentation.”

    You can’t be serious. The only time it’s been tried it was a rousing success, how can you even think to say something so demonstrably false? Another thing I don’t get is this dichotomy the right tries to create regarding government. Last time I checked, we WERE the government. I find the link between their statements and their actions a particularly strong one. It’s no wonder they can’t govern for shit, they don’t even believe in government.

    “I’ve always found that the nine most terrifying words in the english language are: I’m from the government, and I’m here to help.”

    – Conservative poster boy and their proverbial wet dream, Ronald Reagan

  31. “Yeah, like in the 1930’s, when it lifted an entire nation out of a depression. You mean like that?”

    Perhaps you should check up on history, it was WWII that got the nation out of the depression when after the war the manufacturing base was able to switch from wartime needs to the manufacture consumer products that were needed in the world, that coupled with the fact that America was one of the only places left in much of Europe and Asia that had an undamaged manufacturing base they didn’t have much competition. That was what was able to get us out of the depression. The economy never recovered under FDR until WWII and it still didn’t fully recover until after the end of the war, you might know this if you yourself read a book.

    “No, they don’t. Never in the history of mankind has a rich person created a single job. Demand creates jobs. No rich person has ever hired somebody out of the goodness of their heart. They hire people to make money for them, and even then, they pay them less than they will make for the company. That’s how it works. That’s how it’s always worked. There has to be a demand for something in order to be able to supply people with it.”

    So if there wasn’t a rich person there to capitalize on that demand and use their money to start a company that hires people there wouldn’t be any jobs. It doesn’t matter if they hire out of the goodness of their heart and that is a pointless statement the fact it they have the money to hire people and make create the jobs that’s it.

    “Theoretically, yes, but when tax cuts benefit the top 1/10 of 1%, they aren’t doing anything with that money except hiding it in Swiss bank accounts or putting it in money market accounts.”

    Money market accounts help create more capital, this capital can be used for more investments such as new businesses that create jobs and more wealth for more people.

    Yes social experimentation is always a rousing success, like in Cambodia, the Soviet Union and their client states, North Korean, Zimbabwe, Cuba, and Nazi Germany. Shall I go on? Yep always a success just don’t pay any attention to the poverty or that hill of corpses in the corner of the room…

  32. One more thing. You also are confused about the rich creating jobs in another way. you confuse the rich business man with the rich aristocrat. Yes the rich aristocracy do not create wealth they just take it and waste it. However the rich business man takes his wealth and puts it into business enterprises that create jobs and more wealth, that will in turn be used to create more business enterprises and the cycle continues.

    Last time I checked we don’t have kings, and lords in America and this isn’t the middle ages.

  33. We’re not advocating tax cuts only for the wealthy, Robert. We’re advocating tax cuts across the board. Everybody, not just the rich, should be paying lower taxes.

    I have a question: if Obama is promising to cut the deficit in half by the end of his term, but he doubles our deficit within his first 100 days in office, doesn’t that leave us at square one by the end of this term?

  34. Mel,

    You’re absolutely right. It takes tax cuts – especially for businesses – to create jobs. We need a tax credit for business owners who hire employees, and they should allow the cuts for a few years so that owners of S Corporations and small businesses can be the ones to get ahead.

    It will do no good to provide a “tax credit” to a mother of 4 whose tax liability is zero already because her taxable earnings are only $10K while her $5K in food stamps are tax free.

    The businesses need the tax cuts so they can employ the mother to get her off food stamps so that ALL her money is taxable just as mine is.

    And Robert, do you really think any of us here are “rich?” Please.

    There’s no such thing when you work for yourself.

  35. “And Robert, do you really think any of us here are “rich?” Please.

    There’s no such thing when you work for yourself.”

    I am not rich. Maybe I am upper middle class as far as savings goes but not salary wise.

    One of my friends had an outstanding 2008. If $3,000,000 in salary income is not outstanding then nothing is. No, he does not work in banking or finance.

    His total income, Social Security, Property taxes, Sales taxes and Medicare taxes were $1,300,000. That over 42% of his gross salary. 42% people.

    I don’t know what you all consider a fair percentage. But I think 42% is horrible, wretched and disgustingly high for someone who WORKED for that money. It might be different if that came from a savings account that paid interest. But he worked for it.

  36. “Not at all. A strong middle class is better for everyone in the end. ”

    What government benefits do the middle class get? The mortgage interest deduction? Yes.

    If a person is middle class then forget food stamps, welfare, the Earned Income Tax Credit, Section 8 housing and other government handouts. If you are middle class, then you probably don’t even get Pell Grants for college. The poor get all of the above.

    Now if you desire to cut middle class taxes and shift that tax burden to the wealthy, then how much shift is needed to really make a difference for the middle class?

    If my middle class taxes were $6,000 and they are cut by 10%, then that $600 won’t change my life. If that same tax cut goes to a family of four, that won’t change their lives either. $600 per year is $50 per month. That might pay the phone bill each month.

    You can only shift so much before the rich get fed up. The poor and middle class are not the only ones who can rebel here.

  37. “Perhaps you should check up on history…The economy never recovered under FDR until WWII and it still didn’t fully recover until after the end of the war, you might know this if you yourself read a book.”

    Ooh, I love getting to school people! Perhaps you should check up on real history, instead of rewritten right wing history. The proof is, as they say, in the pudding. Don’t believe me, please. Read an accurate book, or the actual data. Numbers don’t lie. Data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics shows the unemployment rate in 1933 at 24.9% and falling each year thereafter, to 14.3% in 1937. In 1938 it rose to 19%. Why the increase? Why, it was a reversal of the New Deal policies, which had reduced unemployment, that actually led to another recession and drove the numbers back up. When those policies were put back into place in 1939, they went right back to work lowering unemployment. But, you were saying? WWII, right?

    “So if there wasn’t a rich person there to capitalize on that demand and use their money to start a company that hires people there wouldn’t be any jobs.”

    Really? I happen to know someone who started a business with an unemployment check. That business when on to employ well over 200 people before it was sold when I was a kid in 1987. It doesn’t take a rich person to start a business, plenty of people in here will tell you that. It takes that obvious demand, and a little hard work and determination.

    “Money market accounts help create more capital, this capital can be used for more investments such as new businesses that create jobs and more wealth for more people.”

    You’re just talking in circles now. The fact that less jobs have been created under Republican administrations ought to tell you something. But you’d rather ignore that to regurgitate some nonsense you heard from Sean Hannity or some equally untrustworthy douche.

    “Yes social experimentation is always a rousing success, like in Cambodia, the Soviet Union and their client states, North Korean, Zimbabwe, Cuba, and Nazi Germany. Shall I go on? Yep always a success just don’t pay any attention to the poverty or that hill of corpses in the corner of the room…”

    Oh, I’m sorry that I didn’t mention that it was specific to this country. I didn’t think I need to, given that the context of the entire conversation sort of revolved around the United States. My bad. And if you really want to get into what type of systems those countries you mentioned actually had, I’d be more than happy to point out that they were, in essence, dictatorships for the most part.

  38. “However the rich business man takes his wealth and puts it into business enterprises that create jobs and more wealth, that will in turn be used to create more business enterprises and the cycle continues.”

    Prove it. Where’s all these jobs you speak of? Under George W. Bush, the economy had one quarter where GDP growth was 6% or more (which constitutes economic growth). One quarter out of 32. Yeah, that speaks for itself.

    “Last time I checked we don’t have kings, and lords in America and this isn’t the middle ages.”

    Maybe you should check again.

  39. “I have a question: if Obama is promising to cut the deficit in half by the end of his term, but he doubles our deficit within his first 100 days in office, doesn’t that leave us at square one by the end of this term?”

    You know, that’s a damn good question. He did say it would be on the deficit he inherited, which is a trillion dollars, but I still couldn’t believe he said it myself. I think that’s setting the bar way too high…

  40. So the new deal policies could only lower the unemployment rate at best to 14% and not even the whole time, that’s not what I would call a good track record especially because his average was 17% or 13% if include the war years. George Bush had a better unemployment rate than FDR, even with all his screwups. But feel free to blame it one Clinton.

    Don’t bring up Hannity with an argument with me. I don’t have cable or even the rabbit ears on my TV. Plus it’s a bad argument to randomly pick out some guy on TV and assume I pay attention to the guy.

    Yeah social experimentation works in America, right ever lived in the ghetto? I have It’s not a nice place.

    Woohoo one guy used his welfare check to start a business rather than buy crack. Good for him, and the rest of them have done what?

    I know it doesn’t take a rich person to start a business I never said it does, and you know it, or you didn’t really bother to read what I wrote. Either way find a real argument on that one.

    Were are the jobs I speak of? If you have a job that isn’t from a small business you have a job from a rich guy that creates jobs. It’s not that hard to figure out.

    Obama is still not a king no matter what your mom tells you.

  41. “So the new deal policies could only lower the unemployment rate at best to 14% and not even the whole time, that’s not what I would call a good track record especially because his average was 17% or 13% if include the war years. George Bush had a better unemployment rate than FDR, even with all his screwups. But feel free to blame it one Clinton.”

    Are you insane? Is that what’s happening here? The New Deal policies could ONLY lower the rate to 14%? So, first, I completely destroy your ridiculous right wing talking point theory, so now you have to bash the progress that was made? You do realize that FDR took office with a 25% unemployment rate, right? So lowering that number eleven percentage points before entering the war is absolutely astonishing. You wouldn’t call that a good track record? But you think Bush had a better one? What is this, amateur hour? First of all, Bush came in to office with a 4.2% unemployment rate (which is nowhere near as high as 25%). Second of all, he left with a 7% unemployment rate. Let’s compare the two, shall we? Lowering unemployment from 24.9% to 1.2% in just over three terms, or raising unemployment from 4.2% to 7% in two terms. Hm, tough choice.

    “Don’t bring up Hannity with an argument with me. I don’t have cable or even the rabbit ears on my TV. Plus it’s a bad argument to randomly pick out some guy on TV and assume I pay attention to the guy.”

    It’s not a bad argument when you sound just like the guy.

    “Yeah social experimentation works in America, right ever lived in the ghetto? I have It’s not a nice place.”

    Yeah I have. And guess what? the number of people living like that only increases when Republicans get into office.

    “Woohoo one guy used his welfare check to start a business rather than buy crack. Good for him, and the rest of them have done what?”

    My God, you’re dense. One, it wasn’t a welfare check, and two, the man never did a hard drug in his life. But good job on letting your true conservative colors bleed through. Prejudiced just like the rest of them.

    “I know it doesn’t take a rich person to start a business I never said it does, and you know it, or you didn’t really bother to read what I wrote. Either way find a real argument on that one.”

    Are you kidding? You know I have this thing called a computer, right? And with this device I can copy your text and “paste” it right back to you, right? Like so:

    “So if there wasn’t a rich person there to capitalize on that demand and use their money to start a company that hires people there wouldn’t be any jobs.”

    We can split semantic hairs if you’d like (so you can put a pseudo win under your belt), because while you didn’t specifically say that ONLY rich people start businesses, that sure as hell was the only class of people you bothered to mention. And in doing so, said that without them, there would be no jobs.

    “Were are the jobs I speak of? If you have a job that isn’t from a small business you have a job from a rich guy that creates jobs. It’s not that hard to figure out.”

    Apparently it is, because we’re back at square one, discussing the fact that demand creates jobs, not rich people. Let’s talk Wal-Mart for example. It’s the biggest retailer in the country. That doesn’t mean is started out that way, because it sure as hell wasn’t started by a rich person. It started as a very small business, as a local five and dime store in Alabama, or some other such state. No rich people there. Plenty of small businesses grow and become incorporated, and lots of them are started by people who aren’t rich. So I suggest getting off your knees for this rich, because this country wasn’t built by them.

    “Obama is still not a king no matter what your mom tells you.”

    I wasn’t insinuating that he was a king. Good Lord, you need to learn to connect the dots a little better…

  42. “My God, you’re dense. One, it wasn’t a welfare check, and two, the man never did a hard drug in his life. But good job on letting your true conservative colors bleed through. Prejudiced just like the rest of them.”

    Robert, pull your head out of your ass!

    http://www.cato.org/testimony/ct-wc67.html

    The more welfare you make available to people, the more likely they are to commit crimes. That IS NOT RACIST! It’s the truth.

    It was OUR party that started to trend of freeing the oppressed, nominating blacks to high positions where yours like Bill Clinton kept them as Secretaries.

    Obama is suddenly “the first African-American” to do many things including, as Ann Coulter says in her latest column: “order a ham sandwich from the White House kitchen late at night.”

    First, the man is barely black and lord knows he aint Michael Steele or Condi Rice. Both Steele and Rice have FULL African-American ancestry existing on both sides of their family trees.

    While Steele and Rice are twice as black, they blather about their blackness about half as much as Obama does about his.

    You cannot ignore facts and statistics though. Welfare and other liberal-loved issues cause massive problems and crime in our society.

  43. “The more welfare you make available to people, the more likely they are to commit crimes. That IS NOT RACIST! It’s the truth.”

    Alright, Steve, perhaps you should take your own advice and remove your own head from whichever orifice it’s currently located. I didn’t call anyone a racist. I said prejudiced. Do you know what prejudiced means? It’s doesn’t have anything to do with race. The kid’s obviously prejudiced against the poor, not unlike yourself. And seeing as how the conversation had nothing to do with welfare or crime, you should really not stick your nose in this one unless you’re actually paying attention, which you quite clearly are not.

    “It was OUR party that started to trend of freeing the oppressed, nominating blacks to high positions where yours like Bill Clinton kept them as Secretaries.”

    Oh, and we’re so proud of you, Steve. With any luck, naked political stunts like Michael Steele won’t result in another thumping next year.

    “First, the man is barely black and lord knows he aint Michael Steele or Condi Rice. Both Steele and Rice have FULL African-American ancestry existing on both sides of their family trees.”

    Are you retarded? Obama is, by the very definition of the term, African America. African father, American mother. How is that barely black?

    “You cannot ignore facts and statistics though. Welfare and other liberal-loved issues cause massive problems and crime in our society.”

    You mean the same welfare whose rolls are reduced when democrats are in office? That welfare?

  44. “You mean the same welfare whose rolls are reduced when democrats are in office? That welfare?”

    Are you talking about when Republicans in Congress passed the welfare reform and Clinton signed it because he knew his veto would have been overridden? Or are you talking about Johnson and Carter, who had Democratic majorities in Congress and welfare rolls skyrocketed?

    “The kid’s obviously prejudiced against the
    poor”

    Yep you got me, I don’t like people what would rather sit around on welfare than get out there and make something of their lives like a lot of people I used to know. Yeah I know all poor people are not like that and, no I don’t hate the poor, I hate leaches.

    “I wasn’t insinuating that he was a king. Good Lord, you need to learn to connect the dots a little better…”

    You need to learn how to take a joke…

    The current crisis you blame on Bush is the fault of the housing market crash, the market crash was due to BS from Fannie and Freddy that Congress (not Bush) refused to regulate. That is the fault of both the Democrats and Republicans but it was the Democrats that kept calling people racist for trying to do something about the problem.

    Yes poor people start companies and create jobs too, I worded my argument poorly. You however were the one that claimed rich people never create jobs. My argument is that they do not that poor people can’t start a company.

    I never said your friend did drugs, I just insinuated that a lot of people on welfare spend their time doing drugs rather than trying to make a better life for themselves.

  45. “I never said your friend did drugs, I just insinuated that a lot of people on welfare spend their time doing drugs rather than trying to make a better life for themselves.”

    That in my opinion is the only real problem with welfare. For some it is a lifestyle they are content with. For everyone else it is a temporary transition program. I went to community college and university with welfare moms who were trying to learn job skills.

    A former neighbor was on it for six weeks when his unemployment and savings ran out. He was able to find a job.

    The above is what welfare is for. Somewhere we got lost and allowed people to turn it into a way of life. That needs to stop. The program itself does not need to end. But people who are not motivated need a benefit limit that is enforced.

    I know I can be cold hearted at times. If someone doesn’t want to work and does not use the welfare program as a means to a better life, then I don’t care what becomes of that person. That person had his or her chance and chose to piss it away. Some people do that.

  46. “Or are you talking about Johnson and Carter, who had Democratic majorities in Congress and welfare rolls skyrocketed?”

    The only reason that rolls “skyrocketed” under Johnson is not because poverty increased (we know that under Johnson, poverty was cut in half, in just four years), but because the rules for eligibility had changed. The old rules were very tight, and were designed to keep blacks off of welfare (for example, the rules stated that women couldn’t be on welfare during cotton picking season).

    “Yep you got me, I don’t like people what would rather sit around on welfare than get out there and make something of their lives like a lot of people I used to know. Yeah I know all poor people are not like that and, no I don’t hate the poor, I hate leaches.”

    Nobody likes leeches, and anyone would be right to resent those who abuse the system. The problem I have with your rhetoric is that your opinion seems to be too widespread. You act like the people taking advantage of these programs are the norm, when in fact, they aren’t. And I don’t think advocating for the dismantling of a program that has helped so many (I don’t know if that’s actually your position) is a venture worth exploring.

    “The current crisis you blame on Bush is the fault of the housing market crash, the market crash was due to BS from Fannie and Freddy that Congress (not Bush) refused to regulate”

    The current crisis has little or nothing to do with housing at all. The problem started with banks, not homes. 28 years of massive deregulation by four presidents (Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and Bush Jr.) have allowed banks to get into businesses that were previously considered illegal for them to do so. Wall St. turned into a free for all, a casino. And as they say, the house never loses. Those assholes walked away and left us holding the bag.

    “You however were the one that claimed rich people never create jobs.”

    They don’t. Neither do poor people. People do not create jobs, that’s my point, demand does. They may devise a way to meet those demands and deliver products to people, which requires hiring people to fill those positions. But without that demand, you can have all the money in the world and not be able to hire a single person.

    “I never said your friend did drugs, I just insinuated that a lot of people on welfare spend their time doing drugs rather than trying to make a better life for themselves.”

    Hey, when you’re right, you’re right. There simply is no arguing with that statement. But I happen to think that the druggies and losers are far outnumbered by the honest folks who just need a hand up.

  47. “The kid’s obviously prejudiced against the poor, not unlike yourself.”

    The only prejudice I hold is against liberals.

    You see, I expect you to come in here and call me prejudice, and you’ve called me racist in the past as well. They go hand in hand with the other. It’s what you have to resort to and I understand it. I am the one encouraging folks to work and earn what is rightfully theirs. You make arguments for why they should be required to hand some of it over to those who choose not to make their own.

    What you do is place victims into one category of “the poor” like most liberals do so you can class-up the category. That way, when normal folks have the ability to recognize the deadbeats that exists in welfare-America, you can say we are hateful.

    I totally get it – it’s so unoriginal and there isn’t one thing you’ve said with regard to it that changes the facts of what welfare and unlimited state programs do to us as a whole.

    So yes, I remained prejudiced – but it’s not against victims, it’s against you.

  48. Where I’m from taking advantage of welfare is the norm. Granted programs like WIC are useful and I make an exception between welfare checks and WIC. The people on welfare that I knew would trade food stamps (when it was still in the stamp check form not the later card form) for money to by smokes, beer and lotto tickets and sometimes drugs. I say the same people every day sitting on the corner with $50 worth of lotto tickets while their kids sat around in dirty and ripped clothes. People would drop out of high school and get on welfare as soon as they could and never even bother to look for a job that didn’t have something to do with theft or drugs. Whole families for generations where on welfare and never even bothered to try to get off of it.

    Yes, some people are helped by welfare but it has to be a very temporary thing not a lifetime commitment that so many people act like it is. Johnson’s policies on welfare where woman could get more money the more kids they had helped create skyrocketing illegitimacy rates in the US, plus it helped foster an attitude where illegitimacy was not frowned upon in the sectors of society that would be most hurt by it. Basically we have to pick up the tab for other peoples mistakes. Even though we have stopped that particular part of welfare, the effects of breakdown of the family unit is still with use and is one of the biggest contributers to poverty in America. I know welfare is not the only reason for this but it helped exacerbate the problems caused by other social changes.

    You ever hear about the Cloward-Piven Strategy? The basics are you orchestrate a crisis in order to take control or remake policy for your own ideology. in one case using welfare, by getting so many people to sign up for welfare benefits that it overloads the system in order to make a giant overhaul of the government (in this case socialism).

    George A. Wiley the founder of The National Welfare Rights Organization used this tactic and it lead directly to the welfare crisis that bankrupted New York City in 1975. I’m not saying that this is a case for getting rid of welfare but it is an example of how the system was abused by people for political ends. They wanted to get people on and keep them on welfare and dependent on the government and in many cases it worked. People dependent on the government are easy to control, the thing is we need to break this dependence in order to get people to move up rather than what has been going on with generational welfare.

    I have been poor and homeless before, I didn’t go on welfare , I just figured how to live off of $10 a week for food and kept working my ass off until things got better. We need people to take responsibility for their own lives and we will never do that if we let people just stay on welfare and never get jobs, something that does happen quite often.

    Demand might create jobs as you say but it is people that make those jobs, it is people that start the companies that support the demand, and in many cases people create the demand. There was no one out there asking for people to make the Pet Rock, someone thought it up and through advertising created the demand for the product. Saying the only thing that creates jobs is demand is a little simplistic.

  49. “That way, when normal folks have the ability to recognize the deadbeats that exists in welfare-America, you can say we are hateful.”

    Hey, if the shoe fits. You’re the one who always fails to desegregate the two categories. We all see that there is no benefit of the doubt with you, just what you would call hateful terms to tear down the less fortunate. If you really wanted them to better themselves, you wouldn’t spend nearly as much time as you do talking shit about them. The fact is, welfare helps people get back on their feet. You obviously hate that, so make up stories about junkies and welfare queens, even though statistics prove that 56% of welfare recipients are only on the program for 12 months or less. How you find ways to bitch about that are beyond me.

    “I totally get it – it’s so unoriginal and there isn’t one thing you’ve said with regard to it that changes the facts of what welfare and unlimited state programs do to us as a whole.”

    It’s unoriginal because what I say is truth. You people have been trying to dismantle welfare since its inception. It’s been a constant struggle, and you’ve relied on the same arguments again and again, and people on my side prove you wrong again and again. I see no need for originality if facts work just fine.

    “So yes, I remained prejudiced – but it’s not against victims, it’s against you.”

    That’s because in your warped mind, there are no victims, just people who made poor choices. I’m surprised you don’t spend more time blasting rape victims for dressing “provocatively”…

  50. “The basics are you orchestrate a crisis in order to take control or remake policy for your own ideology. in one case using welfare, by getting so many people to sign up for welfare benefits that it overloads the system in order to make a giant overhaul of the government (in this case socialism).”

    If that were the case, I’m sure we would have seen that happen by now. If it hasn’t happened in the last eighty years, why would it now?

  51. I didn’t say it worked now did I? However I did say help screw up NYC in the 70’s, not the whole country.

    80 years is a little long to talk about when the idea didn’t come out till 1966. Plus I was only using it as an example of how people abuse the system.

    Who are the victims you are taking about?

  52. “You’re the one who always fails to desegregate the two categories. We all see that there is no benefit of the doubt with you, just what you would call hateful terms to tear down the less fortunate.”

    From the beginning, I have defended Americans and the spirit of all Americans (especially the ones with a little extra to spend) who voluntarily contribute time to causes as well as money to various charities set up to help the poor and the less fortunate. That spirit has never left us. I do realize (as I have stated) that there are true victims, but you’re the first one to holler out “you hate” when we point out the abuse within the welfare system and NOW your party wants to undo welfare reform to extend it.

    I don’t class up the categories. I have always separated out the true victims who ask for help to get on their feet. You on the other hand class up to PROMOTE voluntary increases in government by requiring we contribute without finding out for ourselves who in the hell it is going to. It’s our money, that’s our right. That is the number one fundamental of being an American.

    I’m at work right now. Where are you? I haven’t had a day off since January 16th, how about you?

    I can say that because I’ve earned the right to say it – so when your 1/2 African-American (“1st African-American President to steal money under the law”) President wants to take money away from me that I am currently working for, you have NO RIGHT or invitation to question my curiosity as to where it goes.

    It’s coming soon where one day in America everyone will have to throw up their hands and simply say: “you know what? we have to work and we have to start at the bottom and there isn’t any way around that multi-century-old tradition.”

    Nobody is “entitled.”

    “It’s unoriginal because what I say is truth.”

    It’s unoriginal because Al Franken tried having a successful radio program in the free market with that very same message. He failed at it, that’s why a Government job funded by the taxpayers of Minnesota was much more up his alley, let alone using the clout from the Soros-funded liberal Secretary of State to steal it.

    As long as it’s funded by taxpayer money, you’ll eternally call it “truth” I guarantee it.

  53. ROBERT, it does say “promote the general welfare”, not “give”, “provide” or “subsidize” the general welfare.

    There is a difference!

  54. “80 years is a little long to talk about when the idea didn’t come out till 1966. Plus I was only using it as an example of how people abuse the system.”

    The first incarnation of welfare was created in the 1930’s. That’s where 80 years comes from…

  55. “From the beginning, I have defended Americans and the spirit of all Americans (especially the ones with a little extra to spend) who voluntarily contribute time to causes as well as money to various charities set up to help the poor and the less fortunate.”

    So why is it that when that idea is taken to the next, larger step of society as a whole you have a problem with it?

    “you’re the first one to holler out “you hate” when we point out the abuse within the welfare system”

    Maybe, Steve, it’s because it’s the only thing you’ve ever bothered to point out. I used to be an assistant manager at a Pizza Hut Restaurant, and as such, I, along with the general manager, had to take into account fraud (i.e. phony addresses, grab and runs, etc.) when dealing with the delivery side of the restaurant. Do you think our weekly sales meetings revolved around that tiny percentage of fraud we encountered? Of course not, we looked at the big picture. You would be wise to do the same. If you really acknowledge that there are people in dire need of this help, perhaps you should spend a little less time bitching about those who will inevitably find a way to defraud something meant for the needy.

    “I don’t class up the categories. I have always separated out the true victims who ask for help to get on their feet.”

    That is complete horse shit. The only, and I mean the ONLY time I ever get that out of you is after arguments like this. You immediately pounce on any opportunity to pre judge for yourself whether someone is a crack head or cranking out babies for financial gain. Spare me the compassionate conservative routine, no one’s buying it.

    “That is the number one fundamental of being an American.”

    The number one fundamental of being an American is questioning whether someone who reaches out to the government as a last resort is doing so legitimately? I don’t think the founders laid that out as part of being a good American.

    “I’m at work right now. Where are you? I haven’t had a day off since January 16th, how about you?”

    That’s great. I’m willing to bet that lots of people who work for their uncles still have jobs. I am at home. I just returned from my brother’s house, where I’m helping his girlfriend paint the room I will be staying in as of next week. My roommate cannot find a job, so we can’t afford the rent. I work out of my home, doing freelance contract work, which, surprisingly, pays handsomely for the amount of work to be done. Oh, silly me, I was interrupting your attempt to pat yourself on the back while simultaneously trying to belittle someone else. Do go on…

    “I can say that because I’ve earned the right to say it – so when your 1/2 African-American (”1st African-American President to steal money under the law”) President wants to take money away from me that I am currently working for, you have NO RIGHT or invitation to question my curiosity as to where it goes.”

    Well, I guess technically YOU don’t have the right to question where it goes, seeing as how what you call welfare is budgeted for in every year that money is spent. I find it quite odd that while folks like me were deemed unpatriotic by the likes of you for the previous president’s taking my money (which has yet to show up in a budget) to kill people in foreign countries, you are now filled with righteous indignation when that money goes to help people in this one.

    “It’s coming soon where one day in America everyone will have to throw up their hands and simply say: “you know what? we have to work and we have to start at the bottom and there isn’t any way around that multi-century-old tradition.””

    When has that ever been the case, Steve? You love to toss out rhetoric that requires no thought, but never stop to realize that the people of this country have, for the most part, always understood that we need to work from the bottom up. You like to pretend that that’s not the case, but I defy you to prove to me that this country has ever carried an attitude that indicated otherwise.

    “He failed at it, that’s why a Government job funded by the taxpayers of Minnesota was much more up his alley, let alone using the clout from the Soros-funded liberal Secretary of State to steal it.”

    Do you ever think before forming a response, or is it like clockwork that idiotic talking points completely devoid of fact fly from your fingertips? How’s this for hypocrisy?: Norm Coleman begged Al Franken to concede the race, and ignore the law requiring an automatic recount, stating as his reason the fact that it would be costly and put the residents of the state through undue trauma. That was when he was up by a mere 125 votes. Now that he’s down 225 votes, he not only wants to muddy up the courts with his legal tantrums, he’s now suggesting a run off vote, or a re-vote, which of course, would cost the state millions of dollars it doesn’t have. The man is a piece of shit. He lost, quite fairly, and oh so squarely. He needs to get the fuck out of the way so that the state can carry on its business. By the way, I hated his radio show, but it didn’t fail. He ended the show when he announced, on air, his intention to run for US Senate. The show ended because he left, not because it failed. But, I’m sure it makes you feel all warm inside to tell yourself he failed. I’m kind of curious to know what you call “Just In” with Laura Ingraham…

  56. “They don’t. Neither do poor people. People do not create jobs, that’s my point, demand does.”

    So a bunch of people decided, “Damn I wish I had a Hula Hoop. Why doesn’t someone make one?”

    It takes people to determine if a product or service is needed. These people create the product or service and see who wishes to buy it.

  57. “That’s great. I’m willing to bet that lots of people who work for their uncles still have jobs.”

    Now that is uncalled for.

    I worked for my parents when I was in high school. My brother in-law worked for them too. If we did not do our jobs up to their standards they would have fired us.

    I am sure Steve’s uncle would fire him if he did not do his job. I know he would and I’ve never met the man. Being family may help you get the job but it won’t help you keep it. If you own a business and hire family then a sure road to ruin is special treatment for your family.

  58. “So a bunch of people decided, “Damn I wish I had a Hula Hoop. Why doesn’t someone make one?”
    It takes people to determine if a product or service is needed. These people create the product or service and see who wishes to buy it.”

    That’s why they have research and development. They don’t just mass produce something and pray to God that people buy it. There has to be that demand, once again, in order to get that product to them.

  59. “That’s great. I’m willing to bet that lots of people who work for their uncles still have jobs. I am at home.”

    Nice attempt at an undermine. I also temporarily forgot you were out of work. I wasn’t attempting to smear you for that, so please do not take that as an insult.

    And I wasn’t patting myself on the back. EVERYONE has the same ability to work like this. It has nothing to do with who I work for. I worked for others before settling here full time and trust me, when you work for family – particularly Polish ones – YOU WORK HARDER than you ever have before.

    Read online about the mortgage interest deduction and charitable contributions being wiped out for folks making over $208K.

    You know how much tax that is going to suck out of them? You really think that’s going to stimulate something? You think they’re going to hire anyone, ever?

    This is the first time in the Internal Revenue Code that any class of folk has been excluded from a deduction, be prepared for Constitutional arguments over this one.

    There goes his support from those blue states.

  60. “This is the first time in the Internal Revenue Code that any class of folk has been excluded from a deduction, be prepared for Constitutional arguments over this one.”

    Are you sure about that Steve? High income taxpayers can have thier Personal Exemption Deductions phased out to zero.

    Under the Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT), high income tax payers can lose certain Schedule A deudctions and lose the AMT standard deduction too. In effect they have income with no deductions of any kind.

    High income taxpayers can also have their Sch. A deductions limited due to their Adjusted Gross Income even when they do not owe AMT.

    Finally for people who have a Traditional IRA account, the contributions to it may or may not be deductible depending on their retirement plan coverage at their jobs and the amount of income they make. You don’t have to be wealthy to lose this deduction.

    Roth IRA contributions are zero for high income taxpayers.

    Certain tax credits (dollar for dollar reduction of tax not income) are limited if you earn too much money. The Earned Income Tax Credit is one example. The Child Tax Credit is another.

    I think eliminating the mortgage interest deduction is a horrible idea because it will hurt the housing market. But plenty of deductions are already limited based on income.

    BTW, I consider any element of the Code of Internal Revenue that lowers taxable income to be a deduction regardless of which line on the return it falls. Any element of the Code that reduces tax dollar for dollar is a credit.

  61. “It takes people to determine if a product or service is needed. These people create the product or service and see who wishes to buy it.”

    This is a chicken and egg argument. If I designed the world’s greatest automobile and learn people want to buy it, then how will I mass produce this car without money? I will need people with money to lend it to me or invest in my company.

    Demand alone does not create jobs.

  62. “This is a chicken and egg argument”

    John, that chicken and egg argument you refer to is yours. I didn’t make it, you did. You pasted an argument you made and then proceeded to argue against it.

    “If I designed the world’s greatest automobile and learn people want to buy it, then how will I mass produce this car without money?”

    It’s called a bank loan, or a corporate loan. It used to be that a letter of intent and a matrix to show the bank when they would get a return on their investment would be enough to get you started. No rich folks involved there.

    “Demand alone does not create jobs.”

    Well, if semantics is your game, I can rephrase it to say that demand is the primary driver of an economy. My point with this is that there is literally a plethora of businesses that were started without rich people. If there’s a will (demand), there’s a way. That demand will be met, it’s just a matter of time, not a matter of riches. So, here we are again, demand creating jobs. If you’re that wealthy person looking to sell that car, there’s gotta be a demand for it. Like I said before, you can have all the money in the world, if that demand isn’t there, it won’t do you a bit of good.

  63. “Are you sure about that Steve? High income taxpayers can have thier Personal Exemption Deductions phased out to zero. ”

    John, we agree there. However, the “phase outs” are sometimes (like for example the limit on itemized deductions) are a credit to the AMT schedules. (have you ever filled out a 6251 without computer software? YIKES).

    Phase-outs (though I detest them) were simply a stepping stone to what we have today, actually coming out and telling as taxpayer “you cannot have this!” Democrats aren’t even trying to be clever anymore when they rob a taxpayer, they are living in this bizarro world that Americans have given them a blank check to do all this with, and they haven’t.

    John, this is proof of Democrat’s re-distribution plan. Taking away a charitable contribution deduction is the same as telling them that they cannot have a deduction for that portion of their income that the taxpayer has always re-distributed. At the end of the day, that’s what the income tax does….it’s a forced contribution instead of a voluntary one.

    Democrats run from the intrinsic giving spirit of the people because it helps them argue for their crazy marxism. They want us to give, but on their terms where it is forced – and then we have no say in where it is going.

  64. “The first incarnation of welfare was created in the 1930’s. That’s where 80 years comes from…”

    I was talking about the Cloward-Piven Strategy in welfare not welfare itself.

    “It’s called a bank loan, or a corporate loan. It used to be that a letter of intent and a matrix to show the bank when they would get a return on their investment would be enough to get you started. No rich folks involved there.”

    Wait, no rich folks in a bank or corporate loans? Who do you think runs the banks and corporations? I’ll give you a hint they are not poor people.

  65. “Wait, no rich folks in a bank or corporate loans? Who do you think runs the banks and corporations? I’ll give you a hint they are not poor people.”

    Are you kidding me right now? You just never learn your lesson, do you? Rich people don’t loan their money out through banks. Do you really think they would consent to that? The bank itself, as an institution, lends money, not wealthy individuals.

  66. I said “run” the bank or corporation not loan people their paychecks. Plus some guy or several, got rich creating those institutions and then either they or other rich people run the things.

    Learn to read. Latter you can try to learn how to think. Hell, you even quoted what I said and still got it wrong.

  67. “I said “run” the bank or corporation not loan people their paychecks. Plus some guy or several, got rich creating those institutions and then either they or other rich people run the things.”

    Yeah, so the rich run every bank in the country? Ever heard of local and community banks? Don’t think those folks are rich. Perhaps you should learn to think further than talking points. While you’re at it, learn correct usage of words, because “Latter you can try to learn how to think” is a horrid use of the language. The word you were looking for is “later”.

  68. Well sorry about the spelling error.

    Moving on, so local and community banks are not run by people with money? Really because I know of so many local banks owned by people making $7 an hour.

  69. “Moving on, so local and community banks are not run by people with money? Really because I know of so many local banks owned by people making $7 an hour.”

    Why don’t we start here: what do you consider to be rich?

  70. Well, there’s why we’ve probably been butting heads over semantics. I would say someone is truly rich when they make over $3 million a year. Although I must admit I would instantly call myself rich if I had a million bucks in my bank account…

  71. “At the end of the day, that’s what the income tax does….it’s a forced contribution instead of a voluntary one.”

    All taxes are Steve. I’ve never seen a voluntary tax except for perhaps Lotteries.

    Denying the Charity deduction is another disaster. Ask any charity director or minister and he or she may tell you 80% of the personal contributions (non corporate donations) come from 20% of the donors. Do you think The Salvation Army and Catholic Church are going to jeopardize 80% of the revenue stream without a fight?

    I do get where you are coming from. I am sure it burns Nancy Pelosi up to know The Code of Internal Revenue goes to fund religious organizations that want her burned at the stake.

  72. “Why don’t we start here: what do you consider to be rich?”

    I’ve got a better one. What makes someone Middle Class? I know it varies from one area of the country to another.

    If you live where I live then $200K of combined household income is great and it goes a lot farther in places like Salt Lake City and Denver. Around here, $200K loses purchase power much sooner.

  73. John,

    You make an excellent point.

    The ones who will be hit the hardest by these new tax law changes will be the elites who stomped for Obama along the coasts. Places like Seattle, San Francisco, Los Angeles, New York City are filled with folks making over $200K per year.

    After they file their taxes next year, I guarantee California will miraculously become “Reagan’s country” all over again.

  74. I have always maintained that if Americans had to pay their taxes quarterly, like business, there would be an uproar.

    I think the lame way the government takes money out of your paycheck would change if people had to actually sit down each quarter and write a check out to the government. Why, you ask? Because most people only see the end result of their pay – the take home portion. If they actually had to confront the real numbers, they would be ticked off at what the government wastes.

    We definitely do not get a real return for our investment.

  75. “We definitely do not get a real return for our investment.”

    Yeah, ’cause who likes those pesky roads you drive on every day, and the fire and police departments that keep you safe and are there when you need help? Who likes eating food free from contaminants, or breathing clean air? I don’t know about you, but I sure hate those awful red, green, and yellow lights at intersections. I also could do without getting on an airplane that doesn’t slam into other planes in the crowded skies…

  76. Robert, how many times over do you think we should pay the government.

    Those roads you speak of aren’t maintained every day of the year, much less one time during the year or the following year.

    “Promoting the general welfare?” Yes, I agree, just what you pointed out.

    Where my problem lies is with individuals wanting rights but accepting no responsibility (uhhhh, liberals!)

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