Barney Frank, STFU!!!

The gay community has plenty of challenges to overcome in our quest for equal marriage rights. Many conservatives (and a fair number of liberals) are against gay marriage, mostly because of their religious leanings. Some aren’t religious at all; they just think it’s wrong to allow couples of the same sex the right to marry, flying in the face of thousands of years of tradition. Gay and lesbian people make up barely more than 2% of the total population, so we’re naturally outnumbered. Plenty of lawmakers feel that it would be detrimental to American society to allow gay marriage. The Defense of Marriage Act was passed by a largely Republican Senate and House and signed into law by none other than Bill Clinton (and he was supposed to be our hero!). As if we didn’t have enough problems as it is…

Enter Barney Frank and his huge freakin’ yapper.

That brainless, toothless wonder said in an interview with an as-yet-unnamed gay news agency, “At some point, [the Defense of Marriage Act] is going to have to go to the United States Supreme Court…I wouldn’t want it to go to the United States Supreme Court now because that homophobe Antonin Scalia has got too many votes on this current court.”

Oh.My.God.

Barney, could you be just a little more inflammatory? Could you make it any more difficult for us than it already is? Instead of trying to have a civil conversation with those who disagree with us, you’re going to insult them all just like your constituents? Is it possible in the least for you to try to be nice? Has it occurred to you that they might be more willing to listen if you WOULD be nice? Of course not! You’re too busy griping and moaning about how unfair it is for you.

You have just guaranteed that there is no way in heaven, hell or on Earth that the current SCOTUS will ever render a vote in our favor on the issue of gay marriage. The further you push this issue, the more you insult Justice Scalia and those who think the way he does, the worse you make it for us. Scalia isn’t going anywhere any time soon. And the way you Democrats are playing now, conservatives will win the day in 2010 and 2012–guaranteeing that Obama will have one hell of a hard time getting anyone more liberal than O’Connor named to the bench. You’re not helping our chances with this kind of garbage.

Do us a favor, Barney, and SHUT UP.

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88 thoughts on “Barney Frank, STFU!!!

  1. I will never take Barney seriously until he puts his teeth in, combs his hair and learns how to tie a tie.

    Imagine the next Supreme Court nominees. Sounds like Frank is trying to prepare the way. Here comes the anti Prop 8 mobs from Cali to the National Mall.

  2. “Some aren’t religious at all; they just think it’s wrong to allow couples of the same sex the right to marry, flying in the face of thousands of years of tradition.”

    Forgive me, but I don’t buy it. I would like you, if you can, to tell me of a single non-religious person who is against same sex marriage.

    This is the request of a humble non-religious pro-same-sex marriage guy.

  3. “Forgive me, but I don’t buy it. I would like you, if you can, to tell me of a single non-religious person who is against same sex marriage.”

    My next door neighbors are not religious and they oppose same sex marriage. They are an interracial couple too. I suppose there is a cruel irony in that.

  4. “Do us a favor, Barney, and SHUT UP.”

    I agree!!!! Why make it complex when you can keep it simple? If I were to comment on the D.O.M.A. I would say, “Taking this issue to the SCOTUS right now is not advisable. The current makeup of the court does not favor overturning D.O.M.A.”

    My comment coveys the same trepidation without name calling.

  5. “I will never take Barney seriously until he puts his teeth in, ”

    So it is fact? Barney Frank has no teeth?

  6. “My next door neighbors are not religious and they oppose same sex marriage.”

    And what’s their reason?

    The husband put if rather bluntly:

    Homosexuality is disgusting.

    His wife told me if same sex marriage was a good thing then it would have been legalized somewhere centuries ago and that practice of it would continue even now.

    So, she opposes it because based on history it is a bad idea because it has never been legalized and in continued use by any society.

  7. “So, she opposes it because based on history it is a bad idea because it has never been legalized and in continued use by any society.”

    By this logic, we need to go back to slavery.

  8. “By this logic, we need to go back to slavery.”

    You wanted one person who opposes same sex marriage based on non-religious ground and you got two. I never said their arguments had logic.

    I don’t quite get the logic link you put up. Socieites in the past had slavery and decided that was a bad idea.

    For what it is worth, I attend a gay friendly Episcopal parish. Our priest of openly gay. When he was hired over ten years ago, the parish membership knew this. I am openly gay too. I was elected to the parish Board last month. We perform marriage ceremonies for same sex couples too.

    I know many of my fellow parish membes favor same sex marriage. There are religious people who support same sex marriage. There are also non-religious people who oppose it too. It’s not a case of all or nothing here.

  9. I disagree again when it comes to religion. YES “religious” people like Jimmy Swaggart and Shirley Phelps have a problem. But to compare the majority of today’s decent Christian population to those kinds of extremists is something I have a massive problem with.

    It would be like comparing me to – well – Barney Frank because I was gay, too.

    MOST christians I know don’t give a hoot about gay marriage. MOST of the country is against gay marriage. MOST of the country is not showing up to church every Sunday morning.

    30 years ago, it was fashionable to dissent from going to church.

    Now it’s fashionable to actually go.

    Our community will never achieve marriage rights until we re-vamp how homosexuality is displayed to the world.

    I’d rather be comparable to a Christian as opposed to a gay man strutting down a public street in chaps under the guise of “fighting for equality.”

  10. “30 years ago, it was fashionable to dissent from going to church.

    Now it’s fashionable to actually go. ”

    You are right about that. Last week the Deacon preached in our parish less than 20% of the country goes to church on a regular basis.

    “I’d rather be comparable to a Christian as opposed to a gay man strutting down a public street in chaps under the guise of “fighting for equality.””

    I agree. You can’t change the world until you show the world you are a part of the world. When we allow ourselves to be portrayed by the fringe elements of our community then that is how we are defined by the world at large.

    If gay men want to dress in leather and come off as something out of a bad Frankie Goes to Hollywood vidoe then have at it. But don’t complain when the rest of the world turns a cold shoulder to that. As hard as you try, you can never have it both ways.

  11. “If gay men want to dress in leather and come off as something out of a bad Frankie Goes to Hollywood vidoe then have at it”

    Sounds like a line from Will and Grace!

    LOL, just “Relax.”

    People like that are good for one thing – A GOOD LAUGH. So, the gay community cannot get mad when the rest of the world does so.

  12. Barney’s using his gay smoke screen.
    Basically, his ass is beginning to feel the sizzle as it squats over the financial mess.
    So – this is not new – he plays the triangulate and dissemble finesse.
    Oh? How does it affect you and me?
    He could care less.

  13. My father is a perfect example as well. He’s not a religious man, and while he does not disagree with the fact that I’m gay–he’s actually quite accepting of it–he disagrees with allowing gay marriage because of centuries of tradition regarding marriage and building families. It’s something we agree to disagree about.

    Shawmut, I agree with all my heart.

  14. “People like that are good for one thing – A GOOD LAUGH. So, the gay community cannot get mad when the rest of the world does so.”

    Yes. People tend to take a historical event and attribute it to people who had nothing to do with that event.

    I know when the Stonewall Riots occurred in 1969 it was the Drag Queens that lead the charge. Thank God they did. We owe those people at that time and place gratitude.

    Now it is 2009, many of the people from that day are no longer with us. Those that are we still owe our thanks. But to those people prancing around in a Vera Wang gown down the middle of Market Steet in SF? We do not owe them anything. They weren’t there in 1969. That was not their fight. They had nothing to do with that.

  15. Great point, JohnCA, “They weren’t there in 1969.”
    I recall trying to raise support for the arrested and injured protesters of 1969.
    There was really no “gay” movement, and quite the contrast.
    I remember some self-indulgent queen at what was then the “Punch-Bowl” in Boston commenting sarcastically, “Oh, They’re so Butch!” All within hearing had a great laugh. (Two days later friends were trying to get a dentist in NY to donate services for a kid who lost all his upper teeth. Unless one was on the scene in NY, you’d have a hard time channelling money. And if you were able raise any, donor’s wanted their names shielded.
    Frankly, today’s liberals would credit to themselves a great advancement.
    But, if anything, Stonewall was about individual rights as well as franchise of a collective.
    Today, I find a form of ‘Gay Phariseeism’; dictating in socio-political terms how homosexuals should comport themselves.
    Voting lists and donor lists are vetted, token queers must be cited in every government department and a neighborhood group without a lesbian or queer doesn’t even have standing.
    At almost 68, I look back, and yes, I feel good that we’ve come so far.
    But, when I think of the genesis of (what I call) queer franchise, I am glad to see some of us who can still think for ourselves without compromise of the individual ethos.
    We should also remember, we didn’t do it alone.

  16. “His wife told me if same sex marriage was a good thing then it would have been legalized somewhere centuries ago”

    Evidently you live next door to imbeciles.

  17. “MOST of the country is not showing up to church every Sunday morning”

    Yet, somewhere around 80% of the US claim to be “Christian”. So what’s your point?

  18. “I’d rather be comparable to a Christian as opposed to a gay man strutting down a public street in chaps under the guise of “fighting for equality.””

    Steve the self-hater strikes again!!

  19. See, I wasn’t there, and I know my place. I know that I haven’t experienced real hate. Most of today’s young gays don’t understand what hate really is, they just know that they don’t like the current state of things and they’re willing to call that “hate.”

    It’s like watching a bunch of young black people crying tears of joy as if they lived through segregation. They don’t know what that was like, and most of them have never experienced true racism. Most of today’s young people of any race don’t know what it was like to experience prejudice but you’d think it never went away.

  20. “Yet, somewhere around 80% of the US claim to be “Christian”. So what’s your point?”

    The point is, stop blaming Christianity. The reasons for disagreeing with gay marriage are irreligious.

    “Steve the self-hater strikes again!!”

    You get an F for originality.

  21. “At almost 68, I look back, and yes, I feel good that we’ve come so far.
    But, when I think of the genesis of (what I call) queer franchise, I am glad to see some of us who can still think for ourselves without compromise of the individual ethos.
    We should also remember, we didn’t do it alone.”

    Well said Shawmut!!!

    We did not do it alone. Dr. Evelyn Hooker (a straight woman) was one of the first mental health professionals to document that gays were no more mentally ill than anyone else. Her studies opened the door towards the 1973 removal of homosexuality as a mental disorder.

    The Rev. Cecil Williams – Glide Baptist Church, San Francisco was part of a group of clergy in SF that protested harassment of gays and lesbians. Cecil Williams is straight and African American. Talk about taking risks.

    The much celebrated Harvey Milk was one vote of the SF Board of Supervisors. It took more than his vote to get pro gay legislation passed by the SF Board of Supervisors. Straight allies on the board had to back his legislation too.

    What concerns me these days is this whole attitude of “if you are not for us then you are against us.” This I believe is costing us much needed friends and allies. I find in my own life opposition to gay rights is often driven more by ignorance of the issue vs. any real hatred. But if you sound byte a typical gay activist, it’s all hate and nothing else. I would think after 40 years of post Stonewall we’d be more enlightened and mature about things.

  22. “YES “religious” people like Jimmy Swaggart and Shirley Phelps have a problem.”

    Not to mention others like James Dobson and Tony Perkins…

  23. “Not to mention others like James Dobson and Tony Perkins…”

    Those two don’t even belong in the same class. They may both be anti-gay rights, but at least Dobson isn’t a showboating, preening peacock like Perkins. I can at the very least have respect for Dobson’s refusal to drive a Rolls Royce or Mercedes.

  24. “Those two don’t even belong in the same class. They may both be anti-gay rights, but at least Dobson isn’t a showboating, preening peacock like Perkins. I can at the very least have respect for Dobson’s refusal to drive a Rolls Royce or Mercedes.”

    Good point Mel. On a totally different tack, I’ve always admired Billy Graham for living modestly.

    I’ve never quite got a grip on clergy who drive expensive cars and live in mansions when there are hungry people living in poverty. I am not saying a pastor should live in a rat hole and eat oatmeal three times a day. But the other extreme to that doesn’t sit well with me.

  25. Have you ever seen the Malibu castle that Benny Hinn lives in? Holy tithing, Batman, that place is ridiculous. And bodyguards? Really? Do Hinn and Pat Robertson really need a slew of former secret service agents as their personal goons?

    THOSE are the guys I can’t stand…the ones who, like Perkins (and my former pastor, Steve Riggle), use their popularity in the modern religious community to build themselves up as living status symbols. It’s a business to those guys.

  26. “THOSE are the guys I can’t stand…the ones who, like Perkins (and my former pastor, Steve Riggle), use their popularity in the modern religious community to build themselves up as living status symbols. It’s a business to those guys.”

    Benny Hinn set out to do good and he’s done very well indeed.

    I am all for people enjoying life and living a little. When you are in the clergy I think a slightly different set of expectations apply. Driving around in a Mercedes while there are hungry people out there looks bad.

  27. The Clergy isn’t business, it’s about religion, that’s the difference. A business man makes money and drives what he can afford because he built that life for himself, that’s his job and his duty to his family. The clergy are in the business of saving souls not making money that’s the point. No they shouldn’t starve and there is nothing wrong with having a decent house or car but they are to be held to a higher standard or more to the point a different standard. Granted if a preacher can make 30 million dollars and 29 million all goes to helping people and real charity, I would have a hard time condemning him for keeping the other million but like I said it’s a different standard.

  28. “And the way you Democrats are playing now, conservatives will win the day in 2010 and 2012”

    lol now where have I heard that before…OH YEAH! after 2006 talking about 08! Lol. I wonder how that turned out for ya 😉

  29. So the Democrats are doing well right now, is that it?

    Most people knew that 08 was going to be an uphill battle, some might not have true, but we knew it wasn’t going to be that good and it was worse then we thought it would be.

    But really, you think the Democrats are doing well right now? You don’t think they might have a problem or two in 2010 or 2012? Not even a little bit? You’re not worried at all?

  30. Now, Today, is a moment in our history when we could, if we had the guts, face ourselves for what we’ve become. (Easy, it goes for me too. I’ve been here all along. nobody escapes.)
    I doubt very much the idea could prevail for a half-second without one element or another jumping into a blame mode. The viciousness of the ignorant prevails today.
    We once faced a depression, but we had import credits and tariffs, today we face crisis laden with foreign debt.
    After WWII parents of the young said, “My kids won’t face this.” So for 50 years we planted colleges like Johnny Appleseed did trees. We have a number of people, outside the category of contributors to nationanl wealth, in “Higher Education”. (Higher than what? They can barely read.)
    Someone thought everyone should own their house. So many ‘bought’, with inflated, contrived and falsified data mortgages.
    They submitted their papers to the bank, and driving home in their Honda stopped at Walmart and ‘bought’ home media sets made in China.
    We’ve been wasting more than we earn.
    Why is the European Union squeeking now? They’re a mess. With Professional politicians and bureaucrats without other credentials; like Frank, Dodd, Snowe, Collins and Puxatawney Arlen, their screams, I believe are squeelings of guilt for the mess they’ve made of their own little candy-box and toy-castle countries that are now bleeding silly under the social contracts of government largesse and gargantuan social welfare budgets distibuted to elements of thier populations who choose – elect – opt – to marginanlize themselves.
    And, one other thing: We haven’t had to sacrifice a thing since 1946.

  31. Some people had to sacrifice, they’re either in a flag draped coffin or waiting in line at the VA for their sub-par government health care. They can pass a bill that will spend trillions without even reading it but the best idea they had was to make private insurance companies and vets pay for the damage they got because of the government sent them out to get it. Yeah I know they realized their mistake but only after the outrage made it politically impossible for them do it, and they still don’t have any better ideas.

    They government wants to fund abortions overseas but can give the proper funding to the VA. A trillion dollars and the VA got how much of it? Hell congress started a new GI bill that is really, really good for vets but didn’t even bother to give the DOD the money to pay for it, right not they DOD is trying to figure out how to pay for the thing out of a budget that is already stretched thin, so much so that the Navy just had to cancel almost all reenlistment bonuses. But the government just spent a trillion dollars… Say what you want about the war but if they got sent there and are still getting sent you might want to try to take care of them.

  32. And Barny Frank was on of the main people that got us into this mess, the only words that should be coming out of his mouth are “I’m Sorry” and “I resign for my negligence”.

  33. Republicans have always said that Democrats are screwed and that they should be worried because even though they beat the Republicans “the tide is starting to turn” or “conservatives are getting back to their principles” or yadda yadda yadda…

    And then they lose again and it starts all over lol

    Btw, according to a recent poll, Obama would crush Palin in the biggest landslide since McGovern vs Nixon.

    The only way I can see the GOP winning is if the Democrats truly mess up and are faced with a moderate candidate rather than the extremists like Jindal, Romney or Palin, all of whom your party is tied to like a leg to a cinder block in the Atlantic Ocean

  34. Tom, the reason Republicans lost was BECAUSE McCain was a “moderate”–as in NOT a true conservative. The numbers showed that while a lot of people who’d never voted before came out to vote for this one, we still didn’t have record turnout. A lot of registered Republicans couldn’t plug their noses and vote for McCain because of some of the harebrained non-conservative things he’d done as a senator.

    Don’t start that “recent poll” crap, either. He hasn’t even finished his first 100 days in office and he’s already dumped a more than $3 trillion deficit on us. Once the next two years go by we can talk about approval ratings more seriously.

    Obama is bound to go the way of Jimmy Carter at this point. But at least Carter turned down his thermostat to set an example and put on a freakin’ sweater. Obama can’t even do that.

  35. Sorry to disappoint the followers of this precious “conservative” cult movement, but I’m going to have to explain to you the reality of things, although you’re not going to like it and it will probably make you angry and retalliate with insults…

    You see Mel, McCain was the GOP’s smartest move in decades. Bush was the most unpopular president in American history and in order to avoid total humiliation your party had to choose someone who had the appearance of being as hard set against Bush as possible. The “maverick” was their only shot at political survival, hence why McCain followed this trend and picked Palin, another known “maverick”. God knows had they picked a hardcore conservative like Romney or Thompson Obama would have won even Texas and Arizona. The GOP knew that Bush’s unpopular policies paved the way for the ultimate destruction of their party, but in nominating someone a moderate they were able to at least hold onto a few strongholds like Texas.

    Be warned that if you nominate Palin you’ll all see exactly how popular “true conservatism” is in America, as you’ll be left scratching your heads wondering how a “left-wing loon” won in the biggest landslide in decades.

    Should you refuse to listen to this it will only cause you frustration as you keep trying to convince yourself that this country is conservative. Why don’t you just admit that it’s not? Doesn’t mean it’s liberal, but it’s definitely not conservative. David Frum was right when he said the GOP philosophy was unpopular and that they need to find a way to expand its appeal, but the rest of the party insists that American actually does agree but that they’re too darn stupid to vote for who they “truly” want in power.

    Obama won more votes than Kerry in Florida btw. And the reason the Democrats won is because the GOP misinterpreted earlier election results as being a mandate for their radical agendas. Bush didn’t even win the popular vote the first time, and yet somehow that’s a mandate for conservatism. Then, he went on to defeat Kerry in the narrowest re-election victory in history, as Ann Coulter would say “a rather pathetic victory.” The Democrats now have more seats in the senate and the house than the GOP when they were using their numbers to brag about them being the majority.

    Americans want “big government” or whatever you want to call it. Just because you demonize it doesn’t mean people agree with you. Right now I don’t see how the GOP can recover when it’s hopelessly tied to Limbaugh, Hannity and the like. As Bill Maher said, the GOP is slitting itself in the throat with its insistence on a a far-right social and foreign policy agenda that is doomed to be voted away into the dustbin of history.

    I sincerely hope you guys can moderate yourselves to become electable again. I’m quite scared of Obama’s regulations plans…

  36. “Americans want “big government” or whatever you want to call it. Just because you demonize it doesn’t mean people agree with you. ”

    Yes, and children would have candy and ice cream for breakfast, lunch and dinner every day if their parents would let them.

    Just because Americans want big government does not mean they should have it.

    The Democrats could have run a dead goat and won because this country was fed up with President Bush. The October stock market crash did not help.

    The people of this country who voted for Obama were looking for any port in a storm and they found one. Unfortunately that port is on the Island of Dr. Moreau and the real life monsters are even worse than the fictional ones.

  37. “Should you refuse to listen to this it will only cause you frustration as you keep trying to convince yourself that this country is conservative. Why don’t you just admit that it’s not? Doesn’t mean it’s liberal, but it’s definitely not conservative. ”

    That proves if you don’t stand for something then you’ll fall for anything. Although I believe Liberalism is a disease, I do admire the people who believe in it and can say why they do. I wonder how many people voted for Obama and could give 5 policy reasons why they did?

    What I am aware of in this nation are two things:

    1.

  38. What I am aware of in this nation are two things:

    1. People don’t want to play the cards life deal’s them. They want to quit the game and get dealt the cards like like.

    2. Too many people fail to take responsibility for their actions. They demand someone else to solve their problems.

  39. of course the shouldn’t have something just because they want it

    I totally agree with you John. But America is not this “center right” country the GOP keeps claiming it is.

    If only they could just have the courage to admit when their ideas are unpopular instead of pretending they’re always the majority…

  40. If our ideas are the most unpopular, then please explain to me why guys like Limbaugh and Hannity are enjoying millions of listeners and putting books on the bestseller lists while Air America is languishing.

    The difference is that conservatives don’t typically jump up and down and scream when they don’t like something. We just say what we think and that’s the end of it. I’m telling you right now, you can live in denial all you want, but whether McCain had won or Obama had won, the way things are going neither would have stood a good chance of re-election unless they were able to do something really spectacular.

    Since we’re not even past the first 100 days and Obama is already screwing up, I’m not holding my breath for anything special from him.

  41. “Btw, according to a recent poll, Obama would crush Palin in the biggest landslide since McGovern vs Nixon. ”

    See folks, liberals are so dissatisfied with the stealth of their last “landslide”, they keep reminding us what “recent polls” say.

    LOL.

    What the poll-takers aren’t telling you is that they took it under a bridge somewhere among crackheads. Let the rest of the employed world continue to watch their 401Ks rot, and we’ll see how much an eloquent speech is worth.

    Moreover; Tom – I am very disappointed in your libertarian stance. It seems all it takes for you to jump on a socialist/liberal bandwagon is for that person to be “popular” for about 30 seconds.

    I’m surprised you’re not paying attention. Do you not get that it’s NOT about hating GWB or Palin anymore – it’s now shifted to you being in the position to make excuses for this guy.

    When GWB was President, our 401K statements looked a lot better and more people owned homes.

  42. “If our ideas are the most unpopular, then please explain to me why guys like Limbaugh and Hannity are enjoying millions of listeners and putting books on the bestseller lists while Air America is languishing.”

    Mel, Mel, Mel… 🙂

    A Conservative works hard, studies hard, earns money, and buys a radio. Because the Conservative did the above, she or he knows how to obtain a radio and use it.

    Liberals expect someone else to buy them a radio and operate it for them. That is why Air America is a flop. We have an obligation to buy everyone a radio and operate it for them because it takes a…….well you know what it takes LOL.

  43. JohnCA and Tom dialogue is producing essential considerations for all of us.
    Let’s face it, the country is just sitting in stands watching a wrestling match cynically shouting for a person, only when the it seems the weight is gong his way.
    What I hear from the two of you and some others in their own expressions is a lack of national courage in thought; the lemming behind, doesn’t ask where the lemming ahead is going. But it must be the right direction, because even more lemmings ahead are going in the same direction.
    In a series of spastic historical events we hear experts emerging in cycles; intelligence experts, poll decipherers, medical ethicists and recently economists.
    They show up everywhere, corner stores, bars, gyms, taxis, barbershops and each voice more adament than the one that just blew a roadmap of veins.
    Vsiceral hatred of polarization is heard from people who only seem to geared to do just that.
    The jock-sniffers who hang around the field house after the game and gargle their critiques through foam of industrial quantities of beer, are not usually the ones who tried out for the team, went from nth string upward and, then were on that field playing.
    Think how government would be if all these experts and Monday morning quarterbacks tried out for a team, got something on the agenda (which can sometimes be a win, elected or not) and ……. Oh, Gawd!

  44. Where do I begin…

    Steve, I actually disagree with Obama’s policies, but seeing the GOP obnoxiously insist that it’s a conservative country is just making me feel repelled from them. The GOP is just so condescending and nasty…who would want to join them?

    Hannity and Limbaugh have 15-20 million listeners in a country of about 300 million. What’s ur point? Lol. There will always be at least 15-20 million Republicans and that’s all that’s necessary for right wing radio’s success. It doesn’t mean anything. To interpret that as meaning you’re in the majority is rather strange…

    On top of that, many ppl just listen to get angry. And it could be taht 280 million ppl hate them 😉 Oh, and for the record, Rush’s 20-million-person audience is only for 11 minutes at a time! lol. Once the redneck arrives at Carl’s Jr for lunch they turn off the radio.

    The success of right-wing radio is just a matter of insecurity. The right wing has always needed to be mommied and told that they’re the majority. They can’t think independently so they just memorize the bumper sticker mottos fed to them on the airwaves. “Small government! Liberty! Freedom! Patriotism!” and my all time favorite…”What would Reagan do!” lol.

    “The difference is that conservatives don’t typically jump up and down and scream when they don’t like something”

    HAVE YOU BEEN LISTENING TO MARK LEVIN AND HANNITY LATELY? LMFAO They’re practically crying like all the McCain supporters to Alexandra Pelosi’s camera on election night! Republicans invent their video game macho character to cover up the reality…they cry more, as Bush admitted himself. They’re more scared, as a UCLA study confirmed.

    “What the poll-takers aren’t telling you is that they took it under a bridge somewhere among crackheads”

    Seems all you can do Steve is speak condescending about the polls because that’s all you have left.

    To sum it up, Republicans need ppl to tell them what to think and to console them that everything’s gonna be allright, which is why right-wing radio does well, in reality they’re scared, I disagree with the Democrats’ economic policies but I have to be masochistic and vote for them just because the GOP is obnoxious, and the polls prove that it’s a liberal country, (except for gay marriage, the ONE bright spot for you! lol). Just admit that Bush’s unpopularity is what caused Obama’s victory.

    Fox News even reported that Obama picked up in the polls BEFORE the economic crisis and AFTER the Palin interview, proving McCain’s pick as his final nail in the coffin.

    Oh, and can you STILL believe that “Obama” is counted as a spelling error???

  45. “Just admit that Bush’s unpopularity is what caused Obama’s victory.”

    I have to diagree there Tom. I think the economy more than anything was the deal breaker. Virginia going Blue was not a huge shock. Obama worked hard there. North Carolina going Blue was a small surprise. I think McCain felt safe enough to back off there.

    But, Indiana went Blue. That was a major league shocker. Never in my life did I expect that to happen. Indiana used to be as reliable to the Republican party as DC is to the Democrats. I think the economy more than hatred of Bush was the coup de gras. I know that Bush policies are blamed for the economic mess. But as I have said before, we don’t have Presidential rule by decree. It takes both houses of congress to legislate. For the last two years of Bush’s second term, the Democrats were running Congress. They share some blame for the economy too.

  46. Yes, Dems do share the blame. But as I said, Obama regained his lead in the polls against McCain BEFORE the stock crash and right after the trainwreck Palin interview, proving that the biggest mistake McCain made was in choosing the Alaskan Bimbo.

    But hey, thanks just from Fox News, ya know, that loony liberal network

  47. “Just admit that Bush’s unpopularity is what caused Obama’s victory.”

    Tom, you’re saying out one side of your mouth that GOP whining made the whole country liberal, and out the other that Bush’s unpopularity brought Obama the victory? I will agree on the point quoted above, I’ve been trying to say that all along. But make up your mind, dude.

    Yes, as a matter of fact, I listen to Hannity quite often. When was the last time you saw a conservative slashing tires, destroying yard signs, smashing windows and disrupting political proceedings with cries of “war crimes!”? THAT is what I’m talking about. Liberals get so emotional that rationale goes out the window. At least Hannity can make a sound point and have a civil debate. I’ve yet to meet a liberal who can stand up for themselves calmly.

  48. Apparently you’ve never watched Hannity and Colmes.

    Honestly, Colmes deserves the nobel prize for patience. All he ever did was try to get a word in as he was constantly interrupted by Hannity yelling his zombie bumper sticker phrases “TROOPS TROOPS AMERICA AMERICA TERRORIST TERRORIST”

    Or how about Mark Levin and Bill O’Reilly shutting off ppl’s mics? How about Bill O’Reilly yelling at Chris Dodd during a discussion about the Daily Kos in which Dodd was being polite and rational, even as Bill was yelling at him calling him a propagandist.

    How about when Bill O’Reilly invited Jon Stewart just to spew a meaningless barrage of childish, pointless insults just to vent his frustration at the Daily Show’s popularity. To think, Jon Stewart actually maintained his politeness and continued to invite Bill to his show!

    Watch that movie “Right America feeling wronged”. You’ll see a McCain supporter tackling an Obama supporter just for putting up a sign. You’ll see them photoshopping Obama’s head to look like Osama bin Laden. You’ll even hear people admit to cameras “I ain’t votin’ for no nigger”. But yea, the Democrats are the ones who are uncivil. Not everyone is as polite and calm as you Mel. You just need to open your eyes and alert yourself to the others on your side.

  49. wasn’t the “I ain’t votin’ for no nigger” comment from someone during the Democratic primaries? Because I remember that, it was why the person was voting for Clinton.

    The Obama/Osama photoshop is funny, you can’t possibly use that to talk about hate unless you want to bring up all the Bush/Hitler stuff, something that was much more common.

    No not everyone is polite and calm, however the majority of the anger and the incivility comes from the left, got to a protest on a college campus, go to a collage campus and see what happens when a conservative is a guest speaker. Now this doesn’t make it right when it comes from the right but when the numbers are so stacked in the favor of leftist violence and anger it’s really hard to dispute Mel’s point.

  50. Don’t even get me started with the right-wing’s comparison of Obama to Hitler! To think, he was being compared to Hitler before he was even president! As crazy as it is to compare Bush to Hitler, and least it makes more sense in that Bush had actually done something!

    Btw, Obama’s comparison to Hitler is coming from actual representatives! Could you imagine a Democratic politician doing that with Bush? We’re not even talking about bloggers anymore, we’re talking prominent officials!

    And just go to Michelle Malkin’s site. All that vile woman ever does is spew her disgusting hate. She has no love in her life, all she does is insult and use condescention.

    Do I even need to mention her releasing of the phone numbers and addresses of anti-war protestors? Those protestors of which got their houses egged and recieved death threats! She is a freakin gangster for succesfully inciting violence against a group of people just for disagreeing with her. But don’t expect Ann Coulter to write about that…

  51. So Obama’s Civilian Defense Force, or whatever he want’s to call it doesn’t sound like the HJ, or more like Mao’s Red Guards. Unlike the comparison with Bush that comparison actually does make sense.

    Releasing addresses and phone numbers, you mean like the Prop8 protesters did? Or our own politicians threatened to do to AIG execs?

  52. Tom, I have heard precious few comparisons to Hitler in regards to Obama as opposed to the comparisons to Bush. Not that they aren’t there, but the comparisons from the left side of the aisle between Bush and Hitler are still being screamed. And I have to point out that Hitler’s first act was to confiscate all civilian-owned firearms so that the people couldn’t fight his SS. Obama is working toward gun bans.

    I do read Michelle quite frequently. I have a great deal of respect for her investigative writing. Don’t complain about her condescension when I’ve heard far worse from some Democrats. And don’t EVEN bring up violence against anti-war protesters…I’ve not heard or seen one stitch of evidence of such crimes, however, there are plenty of instances of thugs destroying property and physically assaulting conservative pundits. And the whole Prop 8 thing? Wow. Don’t get us going.

    Of course, we’re also talking about anti-war protesters that defaced the Marine recruiting center in Berkeley. I guess they’re off the hook.

  53. Ironic Mel in that you are actually comparing Obama to Hitler in that exact paragraph in which you are saying it’s wrong….

    And I already mentioned the comparisons between Bush and Hiter, but Obama wasn’t even elected when it was being used against him. It’s as if the right was just too hateful to contain itself until they had a reason, they just had to should out that he was Hitler! Bush had started two wars and was shredding the constitution with warrantless wiretaps and indefinite detentions, not that he was like Hitler, but he certainly is closer to him than Obama, who wasn’t even elected yet!

    Oh, and no prominent Democrat has ever called Bush Hitler, whereas a Republican house member did.

    Don’t make me mention that five hundred trillion times Republicans, PROMINENT ones, have accused Democrats of being godless and anti-American.

    “I like to campaign in the pro-America parts of the country”
    -Sarah Palin, vanquished VP candidate and laughingstock of the country.

    Btw, I’ll make a prediction right now…if Palin wins the GOP 2012 primary, the instant she loses to Obama you’ll all be screaming to the roofs about how it’s the liberal media’s fault lol. You’ve already set up that excuse by complaining about a media conspiracy against her and in support of Obama, therefore you have plenty of material to convince urself that “it’s a conservative country” as soon as she loses. Don’t worry! It’s just the media! Americans were just brainwashed by the media! But they’re actually Republicans!

  54. Tom, please quote the passage in which I declare it to be wrong to compare Obama to Hitler. I did not, in fact, say any such thing because it wouldn’t be the first time I have done that. And I’d really like you to explain why both of the wars started under Bush’s presidency were wrong (unless you’re one of those who is of the opinion that war is never the answer). While I believe that we should have been far wiser about how we approached the Iraq conflict, I also believe that the conflict was unavoidable and was going to happen sooner or later. Afghanistan should have been cleaned up long before it got to this point, and Charlie Wilson tried to make that point back in the 80’s, albeit to no avail.

    I’m sorry, but any government that executes women by forcing them to their knees in the middle of a soccer field and shooting them in the back of the head for something as trivial as not wearing their hijab correctly deserves to be taken out, and I’m not going to apologize for supporting that. While I didn’t like a lot of the things Bush did, starting two wars is hardly like Hitler unless his intent was to impose Nazi-like rule with the purpose of wiping out entire races that are different from his.

    I re-iterate my previous point: the very first thing Hitler did was confiscate all privately-owned guns to force the general populace into submission. As soon as that was done he was able to control everything by saying, “see? You need the government to take care of everything for you!” I think you need to read “The Rise and Fall of theThird Reich.”

  55. “I’ve not heard or seen one stitch of evidence of such crimes, however, there are plenty of instances of thugs destroying property”

    Funny you should mention that, because you seem to be the only one who knows about these things. The point you’re trying to make about protestors being emotional is not something to be used to their detriment. Give me a passionate person who believes in what they say and what is right over a talking point dispensing automaton anyday. No contest. The emotion is what makes it real, it brings it home. When you’re forced to listen to some douche in a suit like Charles Krauthammer, you just get the feeling that he’s espousing ideas he doesn’t agree with, because it will make him money.

    If you sincerely think that the folks on the right are principled, just think about how many of them would jump ship if they knew that going to the other side would make them more money. I guarantee you that if FOX News could make more cash by taking a liberal stance, they’d do it in a heartbeat. Especially when you consider that old man Murdoch has lost 57% of his net worth in just a year. But, do go on, you were saying how successful conservatives were…

    Oh, and one point on this whole ‘Limbaugh is God and Air America is in the toilet’ nonsense, perhaps you can explain why, if left wing talk is no threat, the RNC is paying people to call progressive talk shows and post on their message boards. Some douche nozzle called Thom Hartmann’s show the other day, spouting the usual talking points about how socialized medicine is a massive failure (never mind the fact that the 38 industrialized nations in the world that have it convienently also have the lowest infant mortality rates and longer life spans) and telling some bogus story about how his sister lived in England and had to wait six months to be seen for a tooth ache. The guy also claimed to make $50,000 a year, and at the ripe old age of 39, was able to put his kids through college without taking a handout from anybody. Yeah, the guy was a total truth teller. It turns out that listeners of the show had heard this same guy call other progressive talks shows and repeat the same swill, practically verbatim. The scam works like this: these people call these shows, knowing that conservatives go to the front of the queue, recite their talking points, and try to keep the host on the line as long as possible. I’m guessing they get paid by the minute. another story was told about a guy on a message board, who was the conservative of the group, always posted, most times seven or eight times per day, and ALWAYS

  56. Sorry,

    ALWAYS posted right after a new thread was started. The guy was always super polite, and was just there to state his difference of opinion. A few months passed by with no word from this mystery conservative, then he dropped the host an email, where they struck up correspondence. Anyway, the guy ended up admitting that he had been paid ten cents per post, to post on liberal/progressive message boards, and that’s how he made his living. He worked out of his home, and one can only assume that he posted on A LOT of websites. This all leads to my question/point: if your precious right wing talk radio is so infallible, and the left is no threat whatsoever, why on earth is the RNC paying people to be the opposition on these shows that you like to believe that no one is listening to?

  57. I cringe every time he speaks.

    I don’t know. I’m personally “opposed” to gay marriage because of my religious beliefs, but I’m also opposed to banning gay marriage. I don’t see any logical non-religious argument against gay marriage, and I don’t believe in making laws based solely on religious beliefs. As long as my Church isn’t forced to perform gay marriages, I really don’t have any objection to it being legal.

  58. Robert, do you think the DNC doesn’t do the same thing? If people were paying any great deal of attention to Air America, they wouldn’t be losing so much money and closing radio stations. You can’t tell me that they’re missing such a huge backing because of the people being paid to post on their boards. We can’t even scare you guys away from posting on ours, how can any conservative possibly drive liberals away from theirs?

    And if I need to post mugshots and links to websites that show the evidence, I will. I’ve done it in the past. Point in fact I’m not the only one who knows about it; there was an entire book written about it. There’s even a YouTube video up about a recent incident in which several liberal students managed to shout down a conservative speaker despite the majority of the audience wishing to hear what the speaker had to say.

    You know what? I think I will post that stuff sometime tomorrow. I’ll work on it when I get home tonight.

  59. “Robert, do you think the DNC doesn’t do the same thing?”

    Ha! If only liberals were allowed on right wing radio. They have screeners specifically to weed out liberals because most cons are too weak on any issue to take on anyonwe with half a brain. Did I ever tell you about my attempts to get on Michael Savage’s show? I told his screener my reason for calling, and he said “thanks, I’ll let him know”, right before hanging up on me. And, as Tom points out, if by some miracle, liberals are able to lie to the screener to get on the air, they get jackass cons cutting their mics. It seems those on air personalities on your side are really not equipped to handle opposing viewpoints…

    “If people were paying any great deal of attention to Air America, they wouldn’t be losing so much money and closing radio stations.”

    Uh, hi, welcome to today’s economy, brought to you by Republicans. It’s not just liberal talk that’s closing up shop, it’s radio in general. As a matter of fact, it’s not just radio. It’s the nature of the business, too. Rupert Murdoch lost over half his cash last year, and Bill O’Reilly’s radio show was cancelled because his syndication company’s stock tumbled to 10 cents per share, probably because no one was listening.

    “You can’t tell me that they’re missing such a huge backing because of the people being paid to post on their boards”

    That’s not what I’m saying at all. That story has nothing whatsoever to do with listenership. By the way, you should really check out the ratings comparisons. Every market liberal talk radio is in, it consistently beats right wing radio. So listenership isn’t a problem.

    “We can’t even scare you guys away from posting on ours, how can any conservative possibly drive liberals away from theirs?”

    Oh, you don’t want us around? You can always O’Reilly us and cut our mics (ban our postings).

    “There’s even a YouTube video up about a recent incident in which several liberal students managed to shout down a conservative speaker despite the majority of the audience wishing to hear what the speaker had to say.”

    I’m calling you out on allegations of violence. Using your first amendment rights and tossing baked goods does not equate violence. Your crazies on the other hand, take Bernie Goldberg’s book and hunt and kill the people in his pages. Not to mention the nut job who shot those people in that church, who had Sean Hannity and Michael Savage books in his home. That is violence, Mel. Name me one liberal who did anything as heinous as murdering abortion doctors and bombing free clinics. All the fucking wack jobs are on your side…

  60. “Name me one liberal who did anything as heinous as murdering abortion doctors and bombing free clinics”

    Mark Rudd
    Bernardine Dohrn
    John Jacobs
    Bill Ayers
    Terry Robbins
    Jeff Jones
    Gerry Long
    Steve Tappis
    Russell Little
    Joseph Remiro
    Donald DeFreeze
    Wendy Yoshimura
    James Micheal Hamilton III
    William Harris
    Patty Hearst

    For international fun:

    Pol Pot
    Kim Jong-il
    Joseph Stalin
    Vladimir Lenin
    Robert Mugabe
    Che Guevara
    ect..

  61. letterstoadyingdream,

    You have got to be kidding me. Apparently anyone who disagrees with you is a liberal. This list is ridiculous, so much so, that you’ve taken it upon your self to name communists and dictators as liberals. Using that nonsensical logic, we can just go ahead and call Hitler a right winger. Oh, wait…

  62. “And I’d really like you to explain why both of the wars started under Bush’s presidency were wrong”

    One war was wrong because it was based on demonstrable falsehoods, and the public’s anguish over 9/11 was used to gin up said war.

    The other war, while certainly justifiable, is wrong because the Taliban offered to hand Bin Laden over to a third country for a fair trial. The offer was obviously refused for the apparently much more appealing alternative of dropping bombs…

  63. So none of the people on that list were on the left politically, not a single one of the people on that list considered themselves liberals? now they might be on the extreme side of the modern liberal movement but that doesn’t make them any less liberal.

    Granted if you wanted to talk about liberals in classical sense none of those people are liberals but in the modern sense they are.

    So no I’m not kidding. and you can say what you will about the second list but can you really try to deny the people on the first are not liberals in the modern usage?

    On Hitler I consider him on the left as well, the Socialism part of National Socialism wasn’t put there by mistake.

  64. “So no I’m not kidding. and you can say what you will about the second list but can you really try to deny the people on the first are not liberals in the modern usage?”

    Yes, I most certainly can argue that bank robbers and bomb enthusiasts are not liberals in the modern sense. That’s why you had to go back nearly forty years to find one. Just look at the period since the 90’s, and the right wing psychos it produced. People like David Koresh and Timothy McVeigh were conservative wack jobs. And as wrong headed and destructive as the Weather Underground was, their goal wasn’t to kill people. Bill Ayers wasn’t like Tim McVeigh, who was killing people out of revenge.

    “On Hitler I consider him on the left as well, the Socialism part of National Socialism wasn’t put there by mistake.”

    No, but your characterization of “the left” is quite a huge mistake. Hitler was a fascist authoritarian, not unlike George Bush. Hitler successfully merged state with religion and big business, long a goal of the right in this country. Hitler used attacks on his country to justify every piece of legislation that was passed afterwards, also not unlike Bush. See, when you wrap something in a flag, it makes it so much easier to sell to people like you, kind of like the war in Iraq. Hitler was no leftie, my friend. His traits can be seen alive and well in today’s conservatives…

  65. Since when does the Right-wing want to merge business with the state, they want to keep the state away from business? Last time I checked that was the complete opposite of what the right was about.

    Hitler believed in destroying religion or heavy regulating it, until it could be destroyed. He did want to merge government with business he wanted the government to take over and control business, he wanted the economy to be managed from the government and have a highly large central government and as much centralized planning as possible. The only difference between the Nazis and the Soviets was that the Nazi’s allowed for slightly more property rights. And they used race rather than class as the basis for their ideology. Fascism was just socialism without the international ideology that most socialism had, it had the same general goals and ideals on how to run a state it was just nationalism rather that internationalist, and at times had slightly more economic freedom.

    The Weatherman wanted to kill people, they didn’t bomb those places for nothing. The planned Fort Dix bombing was supposed to go off at a dance for NCO’s and their dates, if they hadn’t blown themselves up trying to make the bomb they would have killed a bunch of innocent people, it was what they wanted to do. Plus they where planning on having to kill at least 12% of the US population once the revolution took control. They just didn’t get the chance to finish what they wanted to do.

    David Koresh was a cult leader, was Jim Jones a Right-wing fanatic as well?

    Timothy McVeigh, OK he was a Right-wing nutjob, congratulations you found one.

    I’m under the impression that you have no idea what your talking about.

  66. “Since when does the Right-wing want to merge business with the state”

    Oh, I don’t know, since as long as I can remember. Every piece of legislation the right authors merely serves to benefit big corporations. They tear down the regulatory walls that protect consumers and they grant corporations personhood.

    Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad Company set a terrible precedent. Now Corporations are asserting that they should stand side-by-side with humans in having access to the Bill of Rights. Nike asserted that these corporations have First Amendment rights of free speech. Dow Chemical asserted it has Fourth Amendment privacy rights and could refuse to allow the EPA to do surprise inspections of its facilities. J.C. Penney asserted that it had a Fourteenth Amendment right to be free from discrimination — the Fourteenth Amendment was passed to free the slaves after the Civil War — and that communities that were trying to keep out chain stores were practicing illegal discrimination. Tobacco and asbestos companies asserted that they had Fifth Amendment rights to keep secret what they knew about the dangers of their products. All this was set in motion by the right.

    “Hitler believed in destroying religion or heavy regulating it, until it could be destroyed.”

    What are you talking about? All the horrible things he did, he did them in God’s name, much like some republicans I can name. *ahemgeorgebush*

    “The Weatherman wanted to kill people, they didn’t bomb those places for nothing”

    Which must be why every statement they ever released said their goal was not to hurt anybody…

    “Plus they where planning on having to kill at least 12% of the US population once the revolution took control. They just didn’t get the chance to finish what they wanted to do.”

    Where the hell are you getting this from? This has drudge-like hackery written all over it…

    “David Koresh was a cult leader, was Jim Jones a Right-wing fanatic as well?”

    Seeing as how Jimmy Jones didn’t barricade himself away, waiting for a war with the government, I’m going to have to say no. By the way, Sun Myung Moon is a cult leader, and rabid right winger to boot, or haven’t you picked up a copy of the Washington Times lately?

    “I’m under the impression that you have no idea what your talking about.”

    That’s because you believe what you want, and no amount of fact will change that…

  67. Hitler didn’t do anything in God’s name, read a history book once in your life, hell read Mein Kampf, it’s a poorly written book but it does explain his whole ideology really well, and it has nothing to do with god, other than replacing the Christian god with the state and some vague references to pre-Christian paganism.

    And don’t even try to call me a Nazi I read Mein Kampf for a research paper I was writing, not because I agree with that crap.

    Letting business have rights under the constitution is not merging business and government, and legislation that benefits a business does not merge government with the business as you say. It doesn’t no matter what you think but that is not what it does, granted the legislation might not be a good thing but that is a different argument.

    So the planned bombing of a NCO dance at Fort Dix wasn’t to kill people? Yeah I know they didn’t do it but that’s only because they blew themselves up making the bomb. Yeah the weathermen didn’t want to kill people, and the 12% figure I got was from an interview with an FBI agent who had gone undercover when they did an investigation into the Weathermen.

    No Really you have no idea what you are talking about.

  68. “Bill Ayers wasn’t like Tim McVeigh, who was killing people out of revenge.”

    I can understand a revenge killing much more than killing people because they happen to be employed by a certain employer or represent a social/political cause they disagree with.

    Perhaps groups like the Weather Underground and the SLA no longer exist because future potential members didn’t have the spine to face juries who would have no problem sending them to prison where they belong?

    Kathleen Soliah a.k.a. Sarah Jane Olson – convicted.

    Katherin Ann Power – convicted.

    Silas Trim Bissell – convicted.

    The list goes on. It took time to catch these people but they were apprehended. The same goes for the Carmichael Four who robbed Crocker Bank in the mid 1970’s and brutally murdered Myrna Lynn Opsal; a kind mother who went to the bank to deposit church offering money.

    Now if you want more modern liberals who are rotting in prison where they belong, then Lori Berenson is a great example. She and her Peruvian boyfriend attempted to overthrow the government of Peru. She is rotting in a Peruvian prison where she belongs. I hope they never let her out.

  69. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrna_Opsahl

    The above link takes you to the Carmichael gang that killed Myran Opsahl during the Cocker Bank Robbery in Carmichael, CA in 1975.

    Those cowards got to live free for 27 years before they were arrested and sent to prison.

    The worst of the liberals around here believed since they had all been stand up people in the intervening time, they did not deserve to go to prison.

    UGH!

    BTW, they all plead out and got no worse than 8 years. That’s a damn good deal for killing someone with a shotgun blast.

  70. “Hitler didn’t do anything in God’s name, read a history book once in your life”

    I don’t know who the hell brainwashed you, but it’s bad. Hitler, in PUBLIC speeches, spoke about Christianity as his motivation for his hatred of the Jews. He said that “As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.” Hitler may have truly believed otherwise, but he, like many conservatives, used this particular religion as a cloak and did horrible things that were justified by that religion. So, I guess the short answer is to read a speech of Hitler’s to know that I’m right.

    “Letting business have rights under the constitution is not merging business and government, and legislation that benefits a business does not merge government with the business as you say”

    What the fuck do you call it? I don’t know why people even bother to talk to you. Truth and facts don’t matter one bit to you. You’ve taken your wrong headed position, and that’s where you’re comfortable. And that’s fine, I guess. Just don’t try to correct people when the facts aren’t on your side, because it’s quite obvious that you have no idea what YOU’RE talking about…

  71. “Letting business have rights under the constitution is not merging business and government, and legislation that benefits a business does not merge government with the business as you say. ”

    I was taught in business school a coproration can do everything a human being in America can do except for the following:

    It can’t vote.
    It can’t make out a Will.

    If a coporation intentionally dumps toxic waste into a river in violation of the law, then the government has to prove the people running that coproration did so with knowledge of what they were doing. The government can’t walk in, shut everything down, lock it all up and throw a way the keys. The corporation gets it due process under the law.

    Anyone who thinks the above is a merging of business and government is drinking from the wrong bottle.

  72. “J.C. Penney asserted that it had a Fourteenth Amendment right to be free from discrimination — the Fourteenth Amendment was passed to free the slaves after the Civil War — and that communities that were trying to keep out chain stores were practicing illegal discrimination. ”

    Robert

    “They (corporations) tear down the regulatory walls that protect consumers and they grant corporations personhood.”

    Allowing J.C. Penney into a market creates competition. Competition protects consumers.

    While I am here, how many communities beg, plead and all but whore it up in a hotel room to get companies to locate business operations in their local area? Everything from free land to tax incentives to sometimes illegal bribery paves that road. I suppose you have a problem with that too Robert?

  73. “Timothy McVeigh, OK he was a Right-wing nutjob, congratulations you found one. ”

    Nutjob? No. Cold blooded revenge killer? Yes.

    He knew what he was doing. He totally knew. He wasn’t crazy unless having a martyr complex makes someone a nutjob.

  74. “Letting business have rights under the constitution is not merging business and government, and legislation that benefits a business does not merge government with the business as you say”

    Letters

    What the fuck do you call it?

    Robert

    I call it commerce. If I own a flower shop and I ask the city for a loading zone in front of my store, then I guess I can’t have one because that would be a merger of business with government?

    Even the little guys and gals in the business world try to get the government to shape the laws however so slightly to help them out. That isn’t always a bad thing.

  75. There’s a massive difference between Hitler using Christianity in his speeches and Bush allowing his faith to be seen. Today’s American lawmakers aren’t bent on genocide and aren’t using that faith to hate and kill. Yes, people do use Christianity as a lever to get what they want with certain social groups today and it is reprehensible. But comparing them to Nazis? Come on.

    Letters, I own Mein Kampf, along with the Qur’an and the Hadith and I’ve read a host of books that some would find offensive. I drew more than a few dirty stares while reading “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” on an airplane once, and that book isn’t even offensive! People tend to think when they see the title of a book that you’re reading, whether they recognize the work or not, that they know what your beliefs are and in more than one instance people have been publicly flayed for reading material that had a title deemed offensive. These days, all it takes to get yourself in trouble is to be perceived as offending someone–you don’t even have to actually offend anybody anymore.

  76. Hitler may have used Christianity at times in his speeches but it was to help d00p the populace of Germany who were for the most part Christian, that doesn’t mean he was one. He hated Christianity, and was not a Christian, he just found he could use it at times to help him get into power and keep it. It was lie.

    “Truth and facts don’t matter one bit to you.”

    And I think the same about you so at least we are on the same page.

  77. “Hitler may have used Christianity at times in his speeches but it was to help d00p the populace of Germany who were for the most part Christian, that doesn’t mean he was one. ”

    Have you ever read the book Hitler’s Willing Executioners? It wasn’t hard for any leader of Germany to stir up anti-semitism in Germany. Anti-semitism in Germany was a well established cultural trait that waxed and waned with the times.

    The same can be said about bigotry in America. While I believe most people of all backgrounds in this country are largely not bigoted per se, they might be in certain instances. For example, my next door neighbors don’t have a problem with me being gay. But, that doesn’t mean they want their kid to be gay. Being gay is fine as long as it happens to someone outside of their family.

  78. No I haven’t read it, the last book I read on Germany was “The Theory and Practice of Hell” by Eugen Kogon. It’s basically “The Gulag Archipelago” for Nazi Germany, although Kogon is less poetic than Solzhenitsyn.

    Also along with the Anti-semitism, it was also during a period when Eugenics was really popular in many countries, it was the only after the horrors of the Concentration camps was revealed at the end of the war that Eugenics fell into disfavor. People like Margaret Sanger was supporter of it in the US, and advocated the sterilization of minorities, the mentally challenged, and people she thought of as genetically inferior.

    On people not wanting their children to be gay, I’m sure many of them don’t wish for this because they want grandchildren, and even though they kids can adopt or there are other ways, it might not be quite the same on their minds. You can disagree with this thought process, but I would not chalk it all up to outright bigotry.

  79. “Allowing J.C. Penney into a market creates competition. Competition protects consumers.”

    Right, but when the people of the community don’t want it there, it’s okay with you that a corporation assumes personhood and forces itself onto that community? The people that protest Wal-Mart obviously wish to support small business, of which Wal-Mart is a notrotious slayer. I just find find it incredibly pernicious to grant a corporation rights that were meant for people to have.

    The founders of this country knew the inherent dangers of big business, and back then, by law, no corporation could exist past forty years. After forty years, it had to dissolve and re incorporate. If that were still the case today, you would see dynastic wealth and a huge disparity between the haves (or the have mores as Bush called his base) and the have nots. Corporations today are given almost global dominion and have so many negative effects on everyday people. And the negatives far outweigh any percieved benefits in my mind…

    “While I am here, how many communities beg, plead and all but whore it up in a hotel room to get companies to locate business operations in their local area? Everything from free land to tax incentives to sometimes illegal bribery paves that road. I suppose you have a problem with that too Robert?”

    Of course I have a problem with bribery, don’t you? And in those communities where they beg for big business to come, they will, granted that they can turn a profit. People can clamor all they want for the big box stores they see commercials for on TV, but there’s just no way that one’s going to set up shop in a town of 3,000…

  80. “There’s a massive difference between Hitler using Christianity in his speeches and Bush allowing his faith to be seen”

    Faith? You call that faith? Most people saw Bush for what he was, a fraud hiding behind a cross. I have a hard time believing any honest person of faith could get themselves excommunicated by The Church of Nativity, but Bush (and Tony Blair) managed to pull it off…

    “Today’s American lawmakers aren’t bent on genocide and aren’t using that faith to hate and kill”

    Then how do you explain this?:

    “this crusade, this war on terrorism, is going to take awhile.” – GWB, 9/16/01

    Hate and kill is exactly what they used their “faith” to do. How else do you explain attacking an unarmed nation that never attacked us while simultaneously ignoring the fifteen SAUDIS who actually did attack this country? How many backwoods rednecks have you heard saying that this is a holy war, Christianity vs. Islam, along with wishes of “killing all them [sic] ragheads”? What makes those people any better than the Muslim psychos who view this as a holy war? They’re two sides of the same coin. One side of that radicalism may be more violent than the other, but to many people, there is no difference…

  81. “Hitler may have used Christianity at times in his speeches ”

    Like I said, don’t try to argue points that you’re wrong on. First you say Hitler was trying to crush religion, then when confronted with the facts, you admit you’re wrong, but still try to prove the point you were wrong about…

  82. “The founders of this country knew the inherent dangers of big business, and back then, by law, no corporation could exist past forty years. After forty years, it had to dissolve and re incorporate.”

    The founders of this country did not have anti-trust laws on the books. Such laws curtail companies from dominating markets and inhibiting competition. These laws work. The 40 year life limit is not necessary.

    Smart communities have zoning laws and urban growth plans. Just because WalMart or J.C. Penney wants to put up a store at 3rd & Main Street does not automatically mean that will be allowed. It is up to the local planning commission to decide what is an appropriate land use choice. You make it sound like Wal Mart goes wherever it wants. It does not.

    Switching gears here. I own shares of Chevron. I am not wealthy. I expect the people who run Chevron to make it worth my effort to invest. I put my trust in the people who run that company and they have an obligation to me. There are many middle class household that own shares in big companies. It’s not all super wealthy rich people.

    Curtailing a corporation is curtailing the people who own shares. Those people are entitled to have their rights protected. I don’t see a corporation as having rights as much as I see the people who own shares as having rights. Just because people pool their capital doesn’t mean they give up their rights in the process.

  83. “Hitler may have used Christianity at times in his speeches ”

    Like I said, don’t try to argue points that you’re wrong on. First you say Hitler was trying to crush religion, then when confronted with the facts, you admit you’re wrong, but still try to prove the point you were wrong about…”

    I wasn’t wrong I said he might have used it but he wasn’t a Christian and I said that he wanted to crush religion I didn’t say he tried to do it the first second he could.

    “Hitler didn’t do anything in God’s name, read a history book once in your life, hell read Mein Kampf, it’s a poorly written book but it does explain his whole ideology really well, and it has nothing to do with god, other than replacing the Christian god with the state and some vague references to pre-Christian paganism.”

    That’s what I said, and this:

    “Hitler believed in destroying religion or heavy regulating it, until it could be destroyed. ”

    and this:

    “Hitler may have used Christianity at times in his speeches but it was to help d00p the populace of Germany who were for the most part Christian, that doesn’t mean he was one. ”

    I was saying he was not a Christian, although at times he would use Christianity when he though it would help him. But my main point still stands, he wanted to destroy Christianity he was just going about it slowly.

  84. “It’s not all super wealthy rich people. ”

    It is when they own controlling shares. My friend’s optometrist owns 60% of Walgreens stock. He just finished building a $3 million home in north Scottsdale. My point is, lots of companies’ controlling shares of stock are owned by one person.

    “Curtailing a corporation is curtailing the people who own shares”

    And how does curtailing Wal-Mart hurt “common folk”? It’s a privately owned company…

  85. “And how does curtailing Wal-Mart hurt “common folk”? It’s a privately owned company…”

    Privately held corporations do not trade on stock exchanges. Wal Mart does. Wal Mart is not privately held.

    If any business wishes to open a location and their plan complies with local zoning laws then why stop that? Where does the line get drawn? Today Wal Mart is the villian. What company will be the pariah tomorrow? Who decides what companies are good vs. bad?

    Where I live Oracle is perceived as a good place to work. But when 5PM rolls around and their thousands of their employees jump on the 101 freeway that place doesn’t seem so good to me. I’d love it if their location was 20 miles north. But, I can live with the hassle.

  86. “Privately held corporations do not trade on stock exchanges”

    That was my point. I mistakenly thought Wal-Mart was privately owned…

    “Today Wal Mart is the villian”

    Absolutely. Why should Wal-Mart be given higher status than local business? Local business employs local people, and the profits stay local. And as we all know, local economies are strong economies.

    “Who decides what companies are good vs. bad? ”

    People do. Just look at all the towns where local business have been killed off by Wal-Mart. You can say it’s survical of the fittest, but how are you supposed to compete when Wal-Mart can offer products for dollars less on the backs of what basically amounts to slave labor? I have not given one cent of my money to Wal-Mart since 2003. I have no problem paying a little more somewhere else. I’d much rather give my money to Target over Wal-Mart. That’s my choice. But lots of people can’t afford to make that choice, and so Wal-Mart thrives, and lives to kill another day…

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