Conspiracies Everywhere

I have to post a short missive about some of the idiocy that has contributed to the stupefying of American culture lately. I have to tell you, though, to read Steve’s post below…he beat me to it, and I have to give a right-o to Issa for standing up. Steve’s got some good links in that post.

Anyway, I’ve been hearing some amazing things from both sides of the political bent lately. It seems like there’s a conspiracy for everything and I’m tired of hearing about it. We all laughed at the twitchy, irritating character that Mel Gibson played in the movie Conspiracy Theory. Unfortunately, real life doesn’t make those guys nearly as easy to spot. There are conspiracies everywhere–some espoused by people we would normally think of as completely down-to-Earth.

Such as anti-Semitic ideas. Where in the world did this come from? I know two people (I do not call them my friends, mind you) who think that Jews are always conspiring to take over the world’s banking system and, thus, the whole world. Words escape me.

Speaking of which, those ideas sometimes tie in with the most famous conspiracy theories of our generation: 9/11 conspiracies. Even the most popular “truther” film, Loose Change, tries to pin some of its makers’ half-wit conspiracies on Jews in the banking system. Either way, “9/11 was an inside job” has become the rallying cry for hordes of mostly young Americans who are gullible enough to believe anything they read or hear without researching the matter themselves. That sort of thing is normally based on entirely emotional reactions; they hear something that they feel may be plausible, and before they give alternate theories a chance, they’ve completely invested themselves in a slew of crackpot ideas that have long since been debunked.

9/11 truthers–or twoofers, as I lovingly refer to them–are on a level all their own. With claims of explosives being planted in the towers, no planes being crashed in Washington, DC and Shanksville, and fire department complicity in the deliberate destruction of WTC7, there are no ends in sight for the outrageous claims these mouth-breathers will make. Occam’s razor went dull a long time ago…it’s now rusted over.

Then there are the gems who believe that George W. Bush “stole” the presidency. Let’s forget the fact that a federal judge declared the winner in Florida (which was the state in question) after days of ballot re-counts. This was a judge that had been under Bill Clinton for eight years; he wasn’t beholden to Jeb Bush, who was then the governor of Florida. In that light alone it’s pretty ridiculous to claim that the Bush family had some kind of conspiracy going. Even if they did, considering the claims that Bush lied us into a war for his oil profits, don’t you think they’d be powerful and smart enough to make it LESS OBVIOUS? Give me a freakin’ break.

Equally as outrageously stupid are the claims that Obama’s birth certificate is a forgery. We have twice now heard the State of Hawai’i come out saying that Obama’s birth certificate is the genuine article. It’s authentic. Fringe conservatives won’t let this dead horse get cold, though. It’s important to keep beating it. They’ve been dubbed “birthers” now. The argument is that if Obama wasn’t born in the United States, he’s not eligible to be the President now. So far, the only documentation offered to prove this is a folded and tattered piece of paper that’s purported to be Obama’s Kenyan birth certificate (oh…and some blogger who has made unverified claims that he/she/it forged the Hawai’ian document). It hasn’t been authenticated, though. And the whole brouhaha has given the Obamas the long-sought ability to say, “LOOK! Those Republicans are NUTS!” The rest of us are more willing to be wise about our approach and accept the reality: Obama was rightfully elected President, his Hawai’ian birth certificate is not a forgery, and there are far better ways to get our point across than embracing this lunacy.

And here’s where the cycle of lunatic conspiracies comes full-circle: Orly Taitz, the California lawyer currently refusing to let his lawsuit remain dismissed, is another batty 9/11 twoofer.

I know. You’re all shocked.

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17 thoughts on “Conspiracies Everywhere

  1. “I know two people (I do not call them my friends, mind you) who think that Jews are always conspiring to take over the world’s banking system and, thus, the whole world. Words escape me.”

    Yeah, like how the Federal Reserve is “owned” by some family called Rothschild, and how they’re so far beyond wealthy that they’re not even on the radar. A guy I work with is constantly espousing this notion. He was my boss last year at another company we worked for, and I got all these anti zionist websites promoting these ideas. And whenever I try to explain to him hat the Fed is owned by its member banks, which are in turn owned by stock holders, he says no, Rothschild. He also thinks that Jews are responsible for all the world’s wars, and that they perpetrated 9/11, so that we’d attack Iraq for them. He’s certainly a fringe conservative.

    “Let’s forget the fact that a federal judge declared the winner in Florida (which was the state in question) after days of ballot re-counts. This was a judge that had been under Bill Clinton for eight years; he wasn’t beholden to Jeb Bush, who was then the governor of Florida. In that light alone it’s pretty ridiculous to claim that the Bush family had some kind of conspiracy going”

    How is it a conspiracy if it’s out in the open? I love how you’re willing to ignore every bit of factual evidence (stuff that actually happened, not what ifs and theories) and rely on the “a judge signed the certification” bit. Time constraints and an order from the Supreme Court kind of forced a judge to do just that. And need I remind you that a judge also certified O.J. Simpson as being not guilty of double murder? Judges aren’t infallible, and to hold that up as some sort of proof that everything was on the up and up is absurd.

    “Fringe conservatives won’t let this dead horse get cold, though. It’s important to keep beating it.”

    That’s because they’re racists, pure and simple. There is no other valid or sane explanation, especially in light of the fact that during the campaign, if that argument could be used against any candidate, it would certainly make more sense to level that charge against John McCain.

  2. “I love how you’re willing to ignore every bit of factual evidence (stuff that actually happened, not what ifs and theories)…”

    Like what? You still haven’t presented any evidence. All I keep hearing is that Jeb was the governor of Florida. As for the judges, I’ve never disagreed on that point, but any judge in a case like this–very different from a criminal trial–still has to base their opinion on the LAW. They still have to publish their opinion, and if it is found not to be based soundly in the law, the decision can be overturned.

    “That’s because they’re racists, pure and simple.”

    No, they’re not racists. Their problem isn’t with Obama’s race. That is one thing I can say for sure and for certain. I know a few birthers and they’re not racists by any stretch of the imagination. The problem is that they’re grasping at anything they can because they feel desperate to get the guy out of office. I might understand being afraid of the guy, but being willing to put something like this out there when it’s been proven wrong is way over the top.

    “… if that argument could be used against any candidate, it would certainly make more sense to level that charge against John McCain.”

    No, it wouldn’t. If someone could provide solid evidence that Obama was born overseas, that would seal the deal; his father never was a US citizen. McCain, however, was born in Panama on a US military installation (technically US soil) to parents who were both US citizens. There can be no argument made there.

    That doesn’t lessen the stupidity of the birthers, though. That’s just embarrassing.

  3. “Like what? You still haven’t presented any evidence”

    This is just sad at this point. What about the phony felon list the state of Florida ordered? Is that not evidence? Were all the people disenfranchised by said list, admitted by the company that created the list, just non existent to you? What the hell kind of loose definition of the word evidence do you have?

    “All I keep hearing is that Jeb was the governor of Florida”

    I have never uttered one word about Jeb Bush. Next.

    “No, they’re not racists. Their problem isn’t with Obama’s race.”

    Oh, come on now. This is clearly an issue of race. Trying to make someone seem as foreign as possible, to the point where it’s literal and geographical, is a common tactic of people that are xenophobes and racists. Two people in my office are birthers, and I know damn well that one of them is a racist. When you turn up your speakers as loud as possible so everyone can hear “Barack the Magic Negro”, you’ve pretty much solidified yourself as a racist.

    “McCain, however, was born in Panama on a US military installation (technically US soil) to parents who were both US citizens. There can be no argument made there.”

    Technically, it’s not US soil, it’s just considered to be so by proxy, so if any argument of the sort can be made, it would be against the guy who was not born in one of the fifty states. It doesn’t hold up to the slightest bit of scrutiny, but it makes more sense than the Kenya theory.

  4. ” What the hell kind of loose definition of the word evidence do you have?”

    Something tangible that I can look over, examine, and base a decision on. I don’t recall reports of a felon list. Then again, it’s been nine years. So go out there and find something you can link to (something that isn’t on a propaganda site, please).

    “This is clearly an issue of race. ”

    Just because one of the birthers you know is a racist does not mean this is an issue of race. Not one of the birthers I know can be classified as a racist. And while “Barack the Magic Negro” may be disrespectful, I don’t think that’s racist, either–I think it’s a jab at the fact that some people are willing to believe that Obama is going to solve all of our problems and the refusal to hold him up to the same scrutiny that Bush was held to because he’s black.

    “It doesn’t hold up to the slightest bit of scrutiny, but it makes more sense than the Kenya theory.”

    You apparently know absolutely nothing about how the UCMJ works. Read up on it and get back to me.

  5. “So go out there and find something you can link to (something that isn’t on a propaganda site, please).”

    I really wish I could get that list for you, but since CNN couldn’t obtain a similar list in 2004 by way of a lawsuit, I don’t think I’ll have much luck either. A statute was passed in 2001 by the Republican congress limiting the public’s access to so called ‘scrub lists’.

    http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/07/01/florida.elections/

    “You apparently know absolutely nothing about how the UCMJ works. Read up on it and get back to me.”

    And what on earth does that have to do with geography?

  6. “A statute was passed in 2001 by the Republican congress limiting the public’s access to so called ‘scrub lists’.”

    And if you read your own link, a judge ruled that statute unconstitutional. The press did get their hands on that list and they were allowed by a judge to both copy AND take notes from it. The list was, in fact, a felon list, and felons (freed or not) are not allowed to vote. That’s the law and it’s there for good reason.

    So please, Robert, tell me–if what you say is absolutely true, then why didn’t a single living, breathing Democrat scream bloody murder to have Bush brought up on charges for supposedly rigging the election? Fair is fair, pal. We’re not bitching about the fact that your guy was fairly elected (well…those of us who have more than five functioning brain cells, anyway).

    “And what on earth does that have to do with geography.”

    Jesus fargin’ Christ, Robert, it has nothing to do with geography. I never said it did. It’s about THE LAW. The law states that a child born to American citizens abroad on a US military post is a natural-born American citizen. The military posts are considered US soil by law, just like our embassies.

  7. And as Robert proves, liberals continue their conspiracy theories no matter how many times they are shot down with the facts, with the law, and with the fact that the damn President candidate himself conceded because he knew that Bush had won the electorate fairly.

    Can you imagine how horrified Republicans would be if the birthers are still talking about this in eight years?

    Funnily enough, the “birthers” allegation has moved on to the Boston rag magazine, so even liberals in the media are beginning to view Obama as some poptart celebrity worthy of nutty rumors, and those same will witness his demise as they did with Britney and people like Lindsay Lohan – except they will be the ones doing the damage.

    I do not support that kind of behavior by the way. I am just pointing out what level he is acknowleged at by these gossip magazines. Trust me, it’s not right-wingers controlling these things.

  8. “The press did get their hands on that list and they were allowed by a judge to both copy AND take notes from it”

    Really? That’s what you took from this sentence?:

    “News organizations were allowed to inspect the list, but NOT make copies of it or take notes from it”

    “The list was, in fact, a felon list, and felons (freed or not) are not allowed to vote. That’s the law and it’s there for good reason.”

    Yes, Mel, no one’s disputing the fact that felons are not allowed to vote in Florida, even if their rights are reinstated in the state in which they committed the crime. The problem is not with that particular law, it’s with the list that was generated in 2000 of supposed felons. And as admitted, under oath, by the very company who produced this list on the orders from the state, the list was rife with errors, because the state wanted it that way.

    “So please, Robert, tell me–if what you say is absolutely true, then why didn’t a single living, breathing Democrat scream bloody murder to have Bush brought up on charges for supposedly rigging the election?”

    Oh my God. Did you not see just about every member of the Congressional Black Caucus challenging the vote certification on the grounds that several thousand African American voters who should have been eligible to vote were disenfranchised? Not only that, but as I said before, there is no proof to suggest that Bush had any participation in this, he merely benefitted from it.

    “We’re not bitching about the fact that your guy was fairly elected”

    Right, the key word being fair. Had Obama won by virtue of a phony felon list scrubbing whites from the rolls, you’d be up in arms over it, as would I.

    “Jesus fargin’ Christ, Robert, it has nothing to do with geography. I never said it did. It’s about THE LAW”

    Well, I WAS talking about geography, and the point is moot anyway. I wasn’t making the argument earnestly, I simply pointed out that if you wanted to make the case for someone not being born in the country, you’d have a much easier time arguing that Panama is not in the country, as opposed to arguing that Hawaii isn’t.

  9. “And as Robert proves, liberals continue their conspiracy theories no matter how many times they are shot down with the facts, with the law, and with the fact that the damn President candidate himself conceded because he knew that Bush had won the electorate fairly.”

    You have to be the most dense person this side of the Shedd Aquarium. The facts all support what I am saying, not what you think you know. There aren’t any facts to suggest that no one was disenfranchised in Florida in 2000. There aren’t any facts that suggest that the state of Florida didn’t hand its voter rolls to a private corporation and said “here, make us a list that’s going to be 95% inaccurate”. Where are your facts, Steve? The fact that Gore conceded? What exactly were his options after the highest court in the land selected our president for us? What judicial body could he have appealed to? The fact that Gore conceded doesn’t mean the election was fair, and it doesn’t mean that the will of the people was carried out, as was evidenced by the tomatoes pelting the presidential limo on January 20th, 2001.

  10. “News organizations were allowed to inspect the list, but NOT make copies of it or take notes from it”

    How about the sentence just a few words down that specifically stated that a federal judge STRUCK DOWN THAT STATUTE? What you’re quoting is the exact statute that the federal judge declared unconstitutional! Read the whole thing.

    “And as admitted, under oath, by the very company who produced this list on the orders from the state, the list was rife with errors, because the state wanted it that way.”

    Really? Where’s the court minutes from that hearing? Where’s the evidence of that? The only thing you linked said that the felon list was ordered fully released for the public to copy and examine. What errors are you talking about? If a felon wants to vote and a judge reinstates their civil liberties–which doesn’t happen often because that would include Second Amendment rights which cannot be reinstated for violent felons–the state in which they were convicted may obey that reinstatement, but the state in which they actually live, if different, does not have to abide by it. They make their own decisions.

    “The fact that Gore conceded doesn’t mean the election was fair, and it doesn’t mean that the will of the people was carried out, as was evidenced by the tomatoes pelting the presidential limo on January 20th, 2001.”

    Now THAT is proof. Just like a liberal film critic who just couldn’t understand how Nixon could have beaten McGovern so soundly because she didn’t know anyone who voted for Nixon.

    You wanna talk about unfair voting practices? Let’s talk about them. How about ACORN’s registration of ineligible voters (including people who were dead)? How about the multiple federal investigations into voter fraud perpetrated by ACORN? What about the FBI raids recently of ACORN offices in Nevada, Ohio and Illinois? How about the insider who is now providing direct evidence that ACORN is a racket and it’s leaders are likely guilty of embezzling hundreds of thousands of federal funding dollars from the organization?

    I’d be a racist if I brought that up, though.

  11. “How about the sentence just a few words down that specifically stated that a federal judge STRUCK DOWN THAT STATUTE?”

    That doesn’t change the fact that they weren’t allowed to see the list BEFORE legal intervention.

    “Really? Where’s the court minutes from that hearing? Where’s the evidence of that?”

    Do you really expect me to dig up the minutes from the hearing? You can look them up on your own if you so desire. The minutia of this isn’t important. What is is the fact that Choicepoint Vice President James Lee showed up to this hearing conducted by Cynthia McKinney, because she received information from investigative journalist Greg Palast. Lee spilled the beans, declaring:

    “DBT (DataBase Technologies, the parent company of Choicepoint) told state officials that the rules for creating the [purge] list would mean a significant number of people who were not deceased, not registered in more than one county or not a felon would be included on the list. Likewise, DBT made suggestions to reduce the numbers of eligible voters included on the list.”

    The Secretary of State obviously didn’t feel obliged to take that suggestion into consideration.

    This article originally appeared in the April 1st, 2001 edition of the Atlanta Journal Constitution. I didn’t feel like paying to access the archives, so here’s Yahoo!’s reproduction of the same story:

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Democrat/message/6834

    Also:

    http://www.answers.com/Florida+Central+Voter+File#James_Lee.27s_testimony

    “What errors are you talking about? If a felon wants to vote and a judge reinstates their civil liberties–which doesn’t happen often because that would include Second Amendment rights which cannot be reinstated for violent felons–the state in which they were convicted may obey that reinstatement, but the state in which they actually live, if different, does not have to abide by it”

    Again, no one’s disputing Florida’s laws concerning the voting rights of felons. People who are actual felons do not have my sympathy, and are not considered disenfranchised in my book. The errors are the ones laid out in Lee’s testimony, where he admits that the state told him to compile the list with 80% name matches, they ordered the list to leave out suffixes and middle names, and to add aliases, and to reverse names (i.e., a felon named Thomas Clarence would cause Clarence Thomas to lose his right to vote). Those errors, Mel. The errors that Choicepoint warned the state of Florida were evident in the list they had compiled. The errors that resulted in thousands of non felons not being able to vote, and with no possible way of clearing up those errors in the ten or so hours that the polls were open. Those people were disenfranchised, and overwhelmingly African American.

    “Just like a liberal film critic who just couldn’t understand how Nixon could have beaten McGovern so soundly because she didn’t know anyone who voted for Nixon.”

    Right, and your incessant defense of the man, accusing me of being so rigid that I thought him incapable of wanting peace. And now we find out, forty some odd years later, that Nixon was indeed not interested in ending the Vietnam war if it meant electing himself. It seems that LBJ found out that Nixon was making back door deals with the Viet Cong, effectively blowing up peace talks with the promise that the republicans would offer a better deal than Humphrey and the democrats. Yeah, the guy was all about peace…

    “Let’s talk about them. How about ACORN’s registration of ineligible voters (including people who were dead)?”

    There’s a huge fucking difference there, Mel. One, voter registration fraud is not the same thing as voter fraud, and two, it’s a hell of a lot easier to commit election fraud than it is to commit voter fraud. So, yeah, ACORN was stupid for hiring douchebags off the street who committed fraud. But let’s not forget that ACORN assisted the FBI in prosecuting those people who committed the fraud AGAINST ACORN. Not only that, but a dead person or Daffy Duck would have a hell of a time trying to cast a vote in person without life or proof of identification. So please, spare me the ACORN conspiracies, because there have been approximately five case of voter fraud in the last four election cycles. It just doesn’t happen.

  12. Robert, my only response to you at the moment is going to be short, sweet, and to-the-point: if you expect me or anyone else here at gayconservative.org to take seriously your assertion that Bush was not really elected the President, then you’d better be able to back it up with facts. Don’t come in here and say, “he wasn’t really the President, but if you want to see the facts, go look for them yourself.” Be prepared before you sling that crap around, dude, because nobody is gonna want to take you seriously if you don’t have the evidence to back yourself up.

    And Yahoo! isn’t considered fully valid here.

  13. “And Yahoo! isn’t considered fully valid here.”

    Oh, of course it isn’t, because it would make you look bad. Go and pay for the archives service then, if you’re so interested in seeing the same exact words.

    This is getting ridiculous. I may as well be talking to a senile invalid. It’s clear that you aren’t interested in knowing the factual circumstances surrounding the disenfranchisement of thousands of mostly black people in Florida in 2000. I’ve given you mountains of evidence, and in almost comical fashion, you ask for evidence while dismissing facts that are a matter of public record. You ask for minutia, you want me to take baby steps with you through the whole process. And when I refuse your ridiculous requests, you insist that no evidence actually exists because you don’t feel like trusting Yahoo! in this one instance. Nevermind the fact that dreck like Snopes can feed you garbage all day about some fictitious element of Barack Obama’s past, and you gobble it up and accept it without the slightest bit of corroboration. You’d like to pretend that the thousands of people who were illegally denied the right to vote simply don’t exist, and if, for one second, you do acknowledge them, it’s merely to dismiss them. That’s right, Mel, it was a huge fucking conspiracy perpetrated by the black community in Florida to piss off conservatives. I wish to God you could take an objective look at what happened then, but you’re far too partisan for that. And before you accuse me of being the same, I should let you know that I had no dog in the fight that was Election 2000. The victor on election day was of no consequence to me in my mind. It wasn’t until I saw what was happening on a nightly basis that I took a side, and it wasn’t Al Gore’s side, it was democracy’s. If you had the good fortune to be apolitical as I was on November 7th, 2000, you might be able to see past your rigid desire to see George Bush as a legitimate leader.

    That being said, if you choose to ignore all the evidence that was laid out not only before our very eyes, but in congressional testimony because you don’t have the minutes, or you don’t like the source reporting the FACTS, then by all means, remain in blissful denial. But let’s not delude ourselves into thinking that this is just made up out of whole cloth, because you insult my intelligence when you make that claim, and frankly, your own for refusing to be objective and level headed.

  14. “This is getting ridiculous.”

    I agree. Actually, I think it achieved that status long ago.

    “I may as well be talking to a senile invalid.”

    I have often thought the same of you, Robert. But up until now I have at least had enough class to say as much to you.

    “I’ve given you mountains of evidence, and in almost comical fashion, you ask for evidence while dismissing facts that are a matter of public record.”

    Mountains? Hardly. More like a molehill, and a small one at that. I only ask for the evidence you say is there. If it can be proven then I will never argue the subject again. You, however, have yet to prove anything beyond an article here and there that is little more than the MSM’s claims. The media also claimed that memos had surfaced that proved that Bush went AWOL during his Air National Guard service. How’d that turn out for you?

    “I wish to God you could take an objective look at what happened then, but you’re far too partisan for that.”

    God, I’m getting tired of that word. I almost choke on it these days…partisan? Hellooooo…pot calling kettle…

    “…because you insult my intelligence when you make that claim, and frankly, your own for refusing to be objective and level headed.”

    Oh, please. Knock off the self-aggrandizement, Robert. You and I have never agreed, that’s for damn sure, but no matter how much we’ve disagreed everyone here has always respected the fact that you have your opinions. What you’re doing now is based in pure narcissism, and if that’s all you’re gonna do, then don’t come back.

  15. “But up until now I have at least had enough class to say as much to you.”

    *had enough class NOT to say as much to you. Sorry…meds already kicking in and I’m sleepy.

  16. So, I just finished watching some 9/11 special on National Geographic, and I’ve come to the realization that it’s actually nice sharing common ground with Mel. The special conducted a series of tests to put the truther’s theories to the test. None of the tests could corroborate the truther’s claims, and in spite of evidence to the contrary, they still believe whatever they want. I am somewhat agnostic on a few issues surrounding 9/11 (mostly because I don’t have enough evidence to form an opinion), but I’ve never been willing to believe that the United States Government willfully murdered nearly 3,000 people in order to impose tyranny on the American people.

    One of the things that always piqued my interest was the Pentagon scenario. I was never fully convinced that an airplane hit the Pentagon, until tonight. I saw evidence and heard things explained in a scientific yet rational way, and it tipped the scale of my opinion from agnostic to believer. The three truthers on the show (including an architect who still manages to be a member of the AIA after spouting his wild theories, and Dylan Avery) saw the same things I did, complete with scaled down experiments involving projectile versus missile like explosive, and still managed to utter the words “that proved nothing”. I consider myself to be fairly open minded (contrary to the presumed popular belief), and I looked at the evidence objectively. In most places, it confirmed what I already believed (that there was no inside job), and in some, it took me off the fence I was on. Why these people are incapable of the same thing is beyond me.

    For all the bickering I do with the main players on this site, I must reiterate the small joy I take in knowing that we can agree on some things…

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