Making Noise

Since we’re on the subject of healthcare reform, I’d like to talk about one of the issues that affects healthcare the most: lawsuits.

Back in June, Obama delivered a speech before the American Medical Association. They cheered some of the things he said at first, but he actually said, “don’t get too excited, just hold your horses, guys…” before then announcing that he would never support tort reform.

He was instantly booed by the entire gathering.

One of the things no Democrat wants to admit is just how much medical malpractice lawsuits contribute to the exorbitant costs of healthcare in America, largely because trial lawyers give so damn much money to the Democratic party. That’s completely aside from the fact that both our current President and First Lady as well as the last Democrat pair are ALL lawyers (well…Slick Willie was disbarred, to be fair). The Democrats have all salivated over passing landmark healthcare legislation before the 2010 elections, and while they’ve all whined and moaned about how many people are uninsured because it’s so expensive, all but one of them have refused to admit the glaring truth, something that made John Edwards richer than God: trial lawyers make a killing off of medical malpractice lawsuits (no pun intended), and they are completely out of control.

Who’s the one to admit it? Barack Obama himself. He called it a ticking time bomb. Yet as he did so before the AMA he immediately turned around and said he’d never support reform.

While there are genuine malpractice issues that require regulations and the right of a patient to have recourse if negligence is truly to blame for severe injury, if you look at it honestly, these lawsuits cost far more than they’re worth. Some of the suits that end up in court are legitimate. Unfortunately, many aren’t–they’re simply the result of a patient or their family wanting to blame somebody for the abrupt change in their lives. I have seen very talented doctors do all they can to save patients they knew would not survive because of the severe trauma find themselves in court over their patient’s death because the family just wanted someone to pay. When I work as an EMT, we have to document every single thing right down to the miniscule things that were said because we might be sued, too.

Thanks to lawsuits, we have defensive medicine. Doctors will order the most expensive tests for things they can often eliminate as possible diagnoses simply to cover themselves on the off chance that something goes wrong and they end up getting sued. When a $250 x-ray can suffice for a complaint of back pain, doctors sometimes order $1500 MRI’s just to cover their backsides. Numerous blood tests will be performed when, in fact, a doctor can usually tell by symptoms what the issue is and confirm it with one or two tests. That sort of practice in medicine costs a hell of a lot annually, driving up insurance costs.

Doctors, hospitals and city EMS agencies will often try to settle out-of-court because the cost of going through trial is greater than just quietly settling, which is another massive problem. It tempts those who know they don’t have a strong case to sue anyway in the hopes of getting anything they can. Whether the plaintiffs and defendants settle or go to trial, these suits cost the entire country a lot of money in a lot of different ways. It also costs the court system precious time, thousands of hours that could be better spent on, say, our flailing and foundering criminal “justice” system. (I know, common sense is annoying–but why ignore it if it’ll work?)

One of the biggest solutions is staring us right in the face and we’re completely ignoring it. I still have not heard one person, one single expert, give solid, factual evidence that insurance companies are the problem. I have to wonder, though, as should we all–why would the Democrats ever be willing to even consider tort reform when they’ve got a near-endless supply of campaign funding from trial lawyers?

Reform belongs in the areas where the problem is, and right now the Democrats are doing little more than making noise.

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39 thoughts on “Making Noise

  1. How are lawsuits the number one problem? That is ridicules. The number of cases is small and it’s a very small part of the total medical bill. Defensive medicine is either fraudulent care , which the doctor bills for or it’s care that many people wish they would have received. How much contact do you have with the real system? Most cases are turned down and very few cases are filed. You could take away ever ones constitutional right to a remedy and all you would do is protect the few bad doctors that do a majority of the malpractice, people lab rats, and have vary little money saved.

  2. I’m curious to know where you got your law degree, because you can’t spell “ridiculous.” I thought maybe it was a fluke, but you’ve now done it twice. Your spelling, punctuation and grammar could use an awful lot of work.

    Only a lawyer would try to take that position. I do work in healthcare, and I’ve seen a lot of lawsuits go thru that were positively frivolous.

  3. Your are correct, I do depend on spell check to much. Funny, I spend time reading what you have written and respond to it, both times you respond with personal attacks. Do you ever get comments? Do you always treat readers this way? Don’t you want people to comment? Now, name one of these frivolous lawsuits and tell us how it worked out. Let’s discuss some facts.
    Also read your first sentence and then read your response to my first comment again and tell me all about writing.

  4. Mike, trial lawyers like John Edwards who use phony science to bankrupt Doctors is a prime example of this. Nowadays you can sue Doctors for anything.

    If trial lawyers had their salaries regulated as opposed to Doctors, you would see a huge improvement in the cost of medical care. However; we want to take the most educated folks on the planet who go to school ten-fifteen years of their life and then spend a few years interning…having no life in their prime…and who have the knowledge and ability to save lives and tell them that if they make more than $250K per year, that it’s unethical or class them up as “rich.”

    I’ve always been taught to believe that when you are “rich”, your money works for you. Doctors work damned hard for every penny.

  5. John Edwards, he was a great lawyer and I would be interested in what case you can show where he bankrupted a doctor. Did they not have coverage? Did they do nothing wrong? Have you read his book concerning his biggest cases? Or are you just rewriting what has been said out there? Even the links are at best very biased sources. I know he is a favorite conservative example, because of his Tiger Woods like life, but the reality is that he helped a lot of people find Justice. That being said I totally agree he did a number of things in his personal life that were wrong.
    In Minnesota, you can’t just sue a doctor for anything or everything. We have low premiums, no caps, and great health care. We have a low number of case filings. Cases are turned down all the time, for various reasons. Usually, because a good doctor was able to fix the mess that the bad one made. Because, as you say, there are a lot of great doctors out there. There are also a few doctors that do a majority of the bad work and shouldn’t be protected with caps or systems that hide them.
    This really isn’t a lawyers vs. doctors issue, as much as you may see the world that way. I’m still waiting on your personal examples of frivolous law suits. I also don’t agree with any Socialist idea to cap any ones income.

  6. Okay…how about the case in Florida where a 68-year-old man went in to have a cyst surgically removed from his spine and sued the surgeon when he woke with numbness in both legs and ended up with drop foot and partial paralysis (knee down). The jury awarded him more than $5M–$60,000 was for medical costs, $500,000 was for future daily assistance, and a whopping $4.44M was awarded for “future suffering.”

    The argument in that case by the plaintiff was that there was no cyst and he had a neurological condition that could be treated with medication (yet the surgeon did actually remove a cyst from exactly where he told the patient it was). The defendant tried to argue that he explained this could be a danger associated with such surgery.

    THESE are the kinds of lawsuits I’m talking about–where a doctor is being sued because the outcome wasn’t what the patient wanted. In California, a woman sued a hospital for “extreme emotional distress” because she had to watch doctors rush to her very ill mother’s room to treat her. She was denied by the first court, denied on appeal, and took it all the way to the CA Supreme Court. Do you think that cost the hospital, doctors and other staff nothing? The fact that she lost doesn’t mean the case didn’t exact a price.

    How about in 2004, when a couple filed a class-action lawsuit against Providence Health Systems for billing them for the treatment of the wife’s stroke–and based their complaint at least partially on the fact that Providence reported $7B in revenue, thus should not have charged them anything (oh, and Providence gives discounts to insurers and government payors, too)? The argument was that because Providence was a nonprofit hospital, they shouldn’t have been charging the uninsured.

    How about some other facts?

    -Neurosurgeons in the US are sued on average once every two years.

    -3 out of every 5 OB-GYN’s have been sued at least twice.

    -One-third of all trauma room and emergency room doctors can expect to be sued in a given year.

    -In 2004, greater than 70% of all medical lawsuits found in favor of the doctor being sued–yet each of those cases resulted in legal defense bills topping $25,000.

    You tell me, Mike. What’s the issue here?

  7. OK let’s look at these examples. First the cases:
    1) That is a big verdict. I would doubt it’s as clear as you make it. Did the defense do a bad job? If there was cyst, it seems odd that the argument would be that there wasn’t one.
    2) Looks like the court took care of it. Did a lawyer handle it? Was it a state with loser pay? In Minnesota there wouldn’t be a claim and it would cost a lot for bringing it. Is there was a lawyer they didn’t get paid. Very big incentive to not take the case and meets the no pay goal you seem to like.
    3) Not a malpractice case.
    4) I’d like to see the cite on the list of facts. I know a number of doctor in each group and they haven’t been sued? There are a number of individuals and groups that have been sued many more times than that. Looking at the numbers for filing in Minnesota and knowing the practice here, these numbers aren’t representative.

    The fear of being sued is the justification for billing more and justifies the “defensive medicine” Again I wish in many cases there was more defensive medicine.

    Now lets look at solutions:
    1) What do you want caps? So we have a full trial with a jury and we limit the most injured parties out there? We ignore that the judge and the court of appeals are there to look at the case after the jury? let’s say the Plaintiff in this case was 100% correct, the doctor was drunk or tired, and it was proven that the doctor rewrote the records after: would you still want to cap the case?

    2) The only remedy would be to eliminate all malpractice claims That’s what they have in Russia. Great care there.

    3) That’s a billing law suit. I would guess that businesses would be bothered if we eliminated this type of case. Also this is a lot like the suits Doctors bring concerning payment. So tell me what you want to do here.

    4) number 2 would solve these “facts”. Again that’s not our Constitutional system. I do wonder , if you have doctors that will admit to doing fraudulant “defensive medicine” , why if you eliminated every med mal case, you would suddenly be able to trust them?

    Now, deal with this one: The 98,000 people that die each year due to medical errors. http://www.98000reasons.org/

  8. I love how Mel’s example of a “frivolous” lawsuit involved the plaintiff being paralyzed from the knees down. What a frickin whiner that guy was! I think the bottom line, Mike, is that conservatives don’t like seeing justice for people who may have been wronged. They’re not too concerned with justice that doesn’t involve locking people up for life for possession of Marijuana. Cons talk a good game about being tough on crime, but they’re really just tough on criminals. Tort reform has long been a clarion call for them. It’s far more important to defend big business when they wrong society than it is to hold those responsible accountable. Oh, you’re dumping known toxins into lakes and rivers? You can’t sue, it’s purely frivolous. What a crock…

  9. John Edwards really did rely on junk science, and trust me, conservatives knew it long before Edwards admitted to his affairs.

    I provided you a link, did you read it?

    How about the link provided by the CBO? How specific do we need to be?

    These lawmakers who have been rallying for malpractice reform for decades now and the CBO and the facts in the Edwards article do not lie.

    I’m glad you think he was a great lawyer, too bad he wasn’t a great husband or a father NOR did he enter public service with a good heart.

  10. Here’s an even better one for you. A study by John Hopkins University blames Doctors for 250,000 deaths. http://www.naturodoc.com/library/public_health/doctors_cause_death.htm

    You do know who they are, don’t you? The same reliable folks that told us 600M Iraqi’s died from the war.

    Doctors have explained over and over again that AMA-type of organizations are what the ACLU is to lawyers.

    If you’re going to sue the hell out them, they have to raise their rates. You cannot have it both ways.

    Moreover, if the government runs health care, there will truly be a lot of deaths as a result of medical care altogether.

  11. Here is the study cited by Mike: http://www.naturodoc.com/library/public_health/doctors_cause_death.htm

    First, it says between 44,000-98,000 deaths. Notice how Mike goes with 98,000 and links it to a website explaining why tort reform is not the answer.

    Second, notice the message in this fair article about the findings. Basically, the article and the study itself finds that BECAUSE OF FRIVOLOUS LAWSUITS like Mel cites, many hospitals and Doctors shy away from issuing apologies because of hungry trial lawyers like John Edwards.

    The message concludes with the following paragraphs:

    “One of President Obama’s goals is to change the medical malpractice system. Although this issue was not discussed in detail during the presidential campaign, President Obama may have offered a preview of where he stands on the issue. In 2006, Obama and Hillary Clinton co-authored a New England Journal of Medicine article, “Making Patient Safety the Centerpiece of Medical Liability Reform.”

    The article described a bill that Obama and Clinton co-sponsored in the U.S. Senate called the National Medical Error Disclosure and Compensation (MEDiC) Bill, which would have created an alternative dispute resolution program and special health courts.”

    In other words, Mike is out of a job. So is John Edwards by handing the power back to the patient and physician.

    Of course liberals never keep their word. Obamacare mentions nothing of the malpractice reform Obama and Clinton seemed to believe was needed back in 2006.

    The good news is that it will take MONTHS for the House and Senate to reconcile their two bills since they are like night and day. The even better news is that the laws don’t kick in until 2014. And even better than that? We got 2010’s midterms and a 2012 Presidential campaign.

    We’ll see just how confident these screamers are when Americans go to the polls in November to take this country back.

  12. Steve, have you been working to get rid of Vitter and Ensign who are still in office? Do you think those are bad people? Or is it just a Democrat lawyer are bad people thing? As for the source, the people are dead. Actually the numbers may be bigger http://www.chron.com/deadbymistake/ , as for your numbers you cite it like it’s anything more then over 9 years and it really is a drop in the bucket. It also includes fraudulant medicine or what you want to call “defensive medicine”. There are dead people who wish they would have gotten some of that. Quit protecting the few butchers and look at some real solutions. Quit calling to shut the doors of the courtroom on real people and creating a protective class of citizens that don’t deserve protection. The whole anti lawyer thing was a great gambit by Rove to raise money and pit good doctors against good lawyers. It made a lot of money for insurance companies and what did they do with that money. Profit, profit, profit.

  13. “I’m glad you think he was a great lawyer, too bad he wasn’t a great husband or a father NOR did he enter public service with a good heart.”

    Yeah, like Newt Gingrich! He’s Father of the Year material, I tells ya…

  14. “Steve, have you been working to get rid of Vitter and Ensign who are still in office? Do you think those are bad people? Or is it just a Democrat lawyer are bad people thing?”

    I don’t live in their districts. If I did, I would be screaming from the rooftops over them.

    I don’t vote Democrat or Republican, I vote conservative.

    I like candidates like Sarah Palin. The same one liberals proclaim is afraid to debate Al Gore on MORE junk science after years of taking on Republicans in Alaska as well as Exxon Mobil.

    Right now I am stomping for Adam Andrzejewski for the Republican gubernatorial campaign in my state of Illinois before it is held on 02/02/2010.

    All people have moral shortcomings, we do not run ours for President however or give them standing ovations like liberals did over Gerry Studds.

    GALLUP, three times this year, released polls which revealed similar results. 40% of Americans identify as conservative. 35% as moderate and 20% as liberal. Republicans are not necessarily conservative, but we’re working on it. If you didn’t hear, Parker Griffith just converted to the Republican Party who opposes government health reform.

    Moreover; Vitter and Ensign received national scrutiny just as Larry Craig and Mark Foley had. Two resigned as we wanted them to. The others will be dealt with by the people who have the power to do so.

    And trust me, I make a lot of noise — I had Blagojevich for years.

    The point is, the frivolous and recklessness among your peers and your respected profession have led to those horrible results you cite. Obama and Clinton both know it in 2006 and as I stated, they didn’t stick to those beliefs, now did they?

  15. “Yeah, like Newt Gingrich! He’s Father of the Year material, I tells ya…”

    I don’t know.

    Can you imagine if Newt’s wife had cancer and they had just lost a son and he was shackin up with some honey while he was running for President?

    Come to think of it, I’ll bet Edwards was off skirting while his wife was on the phone telling Ann Coulter what a big meanie she was.

  16. “Can you imagine if Newt’s wife had cancer and they had just lost a son and he was shackin up with some honey while he was running for President?”

    Or, if Edwards’ wife had cancer, and he served her with divorce papers while in a hospital bed? Scoundrels!

  17. “I don’t live in their districts. If I did, I would be screaming from the rooftops over them.”

    I sincerely doubt that.

    “I like candidates like Sarah Palin. The same one liberals proclaim is afraid to debate Al Gore on MORE junk science”

    I don’t pay a lot of attention to Sarah Palin, but from what I’ve seen, she’s dumber than a bucket of hair and I would absolutely love to see her debate anyone on scientific merit. It’s kind of amusing that you refer to decades worth of demonstrable research as junk science in favor of siding with a woman who thinks the earth is 11,000 years old…

    And yet you refuse to rebuke your own party for giving a standing ovation to David Vitter just a couple of years ago after what should have been his shameful return to the Senate. Funny how that shoe never seems to fit on the other foot.

    “GALLUP, three times this year, released polls which revealed similar results. 40% of Americans identify as conservative.”

    You’re right, you’re absolutely right. But oddly enough, those people are never pressed to elaborate on that position. They just know they’re conservative, dammit! But, they don’t know why, other than they hate gays and love invading the privacy of a female’s womb. When pressed on actual issues, like education, infrastructure, and local communities, people aren’t so conservative. Let’s take the health care “debate”. I use quotations to show that it’s been incredibly one sided, with the democratic side using (for the most part) logic and critical thinking, and the conservative and republican side using fear mongering and the exact opposite of critical thinking, reducing debate to idiotic bumper stickers like “Abortion is not health care”. But, my point was, with the public option, fully 77% of the country supported this fairly liberal proposal, and it still managed to get shot down by 43 conservatives who couldn’t give a shit less about their constituents.

  18. “I sincerely doubt that.”

    I honestly don’t care what you doubt. I am campaigning for Adam Andrzejewski and against the other three Republicans in the race. What have you been doing for your district?

    “I don’t pay a lot of attention to Sarah Palin, but from what I’ve seen, she’s dumber than a bucket of hair”

    That’s what you guys said last year in November. Now liberals are throwing tomatoes at her and developing conspiracy theories to explain the massive crowds she’s drawing, the books she’s selling, and the highest ratings she’s given the Tonight Show and Oprah in years.

    Go on, call her stupid again — I can tell it’s making a big difference.

    “But oddly enough, those people are never pressed to elaborate on that position. They just know they’re conservative, dammit!”

    Nonsense, they know what it means. In my experience, it is always best to do with what seems fashionable. Before I started listening to talk radio, I always knew that my “default answer” to “how do you vote?” should be “liberal.”

    It is not fashionable to say “conservative.” The principles of conservatism were popular when the Constitution was written, when the Declaration of Independence was delivered, and today as well. Go on and deny it, but allow me to quote your response so I can re-paste it after the election of 2010.

    Allowing Americans to take care of themselves is not “fear-mongering” Robert. However; having liberal Congressman like Grayson refer to America as witnessing a “Holocaust” up until now IS FEAR MONGERING.

    When conservatives bring up factual instances like 9/11 or like the Russian school bombings that took place near where a Jihadist was being detained to explain to Pat Quinn and Dick Durbin why the residents of my state don’t want Gitmo detainees here, we are accused of FEAR MONGERING because they claim about 1,100 jobs can be created at the prison.

    Yet, your liberal members of Congress can go against people like Sarah Palin who have first-hand knowledge of the natural resources her state can produce for America, provide hundreds of thousands of new jobs across the national landscape, and lower our dependence on Iran. They prevent all of that progress because of the warnings of a few tree-huggers. Nah, that’s not FEAR-MONGERING, is it?

    The fact is, the Government cannot run ANYTHING. They have screwed education, they have screwed Social Security, they have screwed medicare — and now, you want to risk something all of us have and are willing to pay for (while we await real solutions without creating trillions of dollars of national debt) because 15% of this country do not have health insurance while HALF OF THEM admit they do not want it.

    Well, I hope your lefty friends get it by 2014. Because if conservatives don’t repeal this bill that lacks both an extension of medicare (did you see Rachel Maddow’s head blow up?) and the public option, they WILL pay a fine or go to jail.

    Then perhaps I can see YOUR head explode. That’s your big government, kid. Just sign your name on the dotted line!

  19. Government can’t run anything? Wow, again you amaze me. The Army, The Police, The Fire Department,. Oh and the bailouts last year went to who????
    Social Security and Medicare have worked well and the bill is intended to fund it, unlike the Conservative give away to the Pharmaceuticals that was unfunded. No Child left behind was the Conservative mess, but over all many people have been educated in our system.

    So is it easy to be so anti government and actually work to elect someone? It seems like a tough idea to keep consistent.

  20. ” I am campaigning for Adam Andrzejewski and against the other three Republicans in the race”

    Congratulations, you’re officially a teabagger. You know, if that carries over to the general election, you just might hand over the election to the democrat, a la NY23.

    “What have you been doing for your district?”

    My district is hopelessly conservative. I live in a red state. What I do for my district is all I can do – cast a vote to keep the crazies out. It never works, but I’m exercising my freedom to do so.

    “Now liberals are throwing tomatoes at her and developing conspiracy theories to explain the massive crowds she’s drawing”

    500 people is massive?

    http://topics.dallasnews.com/article/009o6IQ1fc7gQ?q=Sarah+Palin

    “the books she’s selling”

    Yeah, conspiracy. Remember when you tried to “debunk” this “myth”?

    http://w3.newsmax.com/a/sarahbook/?PROMO_CODE=90F0-1&gclid=CLiBt9rCr54CFRAeDQodUkWAmQ

    “Go on, call her stupid again”

    Okay, she’s stupid. The best part is, you know she is. It’s why you work so hard to defend her.

    “The principles of conservatism were popular when the Constitution was written, when the Declaration of Independence was delivered”

    Nothing could be further from the truth. Even the very word conservative belies the intent to conserve things, to not change them. There was a word for conservatives back in those days – loyalists. The founders were anything but conservative. The conservatives were the ones hanging the revolutionaries for their disloyalty to the king.

    “Allowing Americans to take care of themselves is not “fear-mongering” Robert.”

    No, but “take your government hands off my medicare” is. Making up outright lies about death panels (which got your queen crowned liar of the year by the St. Petersburg Times) to kill off grandma is an absolute fear mongering tactic.

    “However; having liberal Congressman like Grayson refer to America as witnessing a “Holocaust” up until now IS FEAR MONGERING.”

    How is stating a fact about something that has in fact happened (the deaths of thousands each year) fear mongering? Fear mongering is deliberately frightening people with future doomsday scenarios, something your side of the aisle has perfected this decade.

    “The fact is, the Government cannot run ANYTHING”

    And yet they’ve provided you with the very atmosphere that gives you the hubris to believe that you are better than anyone else…

    “and now, you want to risk something all of us have and are willing to pay for (while we await real solutions without creating trillions of dollars of national debt) because 15% of this country do not have health insurance while HALF OF THEM admit they do not want it.”

    First off, you apparently listen to the CBO only when it says something you like. The health care bill will only reduce deficits (by much less, thanks to conservatives’ weakening of the bill), something you only manage to complain about when a democrat is in office. And on that note, how can you claim to be fiscally conservative while simultaneously supporting doing nothing at all to reform the health care system which has put tremendous burden on the deficit (that we all know you don’t really care about)?

    Second, your cavalier attitude towards the tens of millions of people who don’t have health insurance says a lot about your predilection for compassion toward your fellow man.

    “Because if conservatives don’t repeal this bill that lacks both an extension of medicare (did you see Rachel Maddow’s head blow up?) and the public option, they WILL pay a fine or go to jail.”

    No one is going to jail, you clown. THAT is fear mongering. And all those things that you’re giddy about not being in the bill, those are the things that only need 51 votes to pass…

  21. “Government can’t run anything? Wow, again you amaze me. The Army, The Police, The Fire Department”

    Steve has become very adept at ignoring pesky little things like facts…

    “Social Security and Medicare have worked well and the bill is intended to fund it, unlike the Conservative give away to the Pharmaceuticals that was unfunded.”

    Thank you! Another thing that the “liberal” media seems to overlook is the fact that if everyone were allowed to buy into Medicare, it would widen the pool, and it wouldn’t be on a path to insolvency. Conservatives are so transparent, and their strategy of starving the beast has been in action since Reagan. That’s why the public option scares the pants off of them. They know the people would love it, just like they love medicare, and conservatives would remain the minority for at least a generation. It’s all political posturing. Conservatives don’t give a shit about human life.

    “So is it easy to be so anti government and actually work to elect someone? It seems like a tough idea to keep consistent.”

    Isn’t it amazing that even conservative politicians demonize the institution they seek to be a part of? How anyone can vote for some bat shit crazy freak like Michelle Bachman is beyond me. Yes, let’s vote this person into the government after all she does is bad mouth it. Logic was never the con’s strong suit…

  22. “Government can’t run anything? Wow, again you amaze me. The Army, The Police, The Fire Department,. Oh and the bailouts last year went to who????”

    The Army is not run by the government. The Army is run by generals. The Police and Fire Departments are run by Captains and Chiefs — the people get to choose those positions through one bureaucratic process or another. This is not the same thing as taking over an entire industry.

    Liberals are hilarious when they bring up the postal service and use it to explain why government interference is okay — especially when they compare it to Fed Ex. Fed Ex is operated in the free market. The next time you need to send something to someone that has value, you tell me which one you will trust it with – Fed Ex or USPS?

    Not all of us supported the bailout, remember? That’s where the divide ends and why liberals were actually able to pull off a national election.

    Liberals ONLY win elections when Republicans stop being conservative.

    McCain supported the bailout, Bush supported the bailout, I never did.

    Now, you can blame liberals for stupid legislation like the Fair Housing Act that allowed people to purchase homes without the proper credit or down payment to do so. The old liberal way of handing out complete whales to folks instead of giving them a fishing pole to catch their own fish.

    Or with health care, you can just read the current Senate bill. Let me reiterate, HALF OF THE 30M do not want health insurance. So now, half of them will be forced to get it or they will go to jail.

    “Social Security and Medicare have worked well and the bill is intended to fund it”

    Which bill? The same one that’s going to ensure that the quality of health care goes up for all, then provide insurance to everyone, while the costs miraculously go down? That one!?

    Do you not understand THEY ARE BROKE and nearly insolvent right now!?

    I don’t care what the bill “intends” — do people win court cases based on intentions? Are the intentions of Doctors who prescribe the wrong medicines the desideratum on whether or not you choose to move forward with a case?

    Of course not. Please stop understanding concepts in one case but dismissing them in another.

    READ THE BILL!

    “No Child left behind was the Conservative mess”

    Right, because the entire education system through force of teacher’s unions was going swimmingly, right?

    Entitlements, unions, and government control (plus the back-scratching with the unions) = Detroit.

    Not familiar with what liberals did to Detroit? check it out: http://gayconservative.org/2009/12/28/what-liberals-did-to-detroit/

  23. “media seems to overlook is the fact that if everyone were allowed to buy into Medicare, it would widen the pool, and it wouldn’t be on a path to insolvency.”

    All of us already pay into it through our wages. We don’t have a choice on whether or not to “buy into” it. For my entire working life, my gross pay has been reduced by 1.45% to pay for a system that is ALREADY BROKE!

    Robert’s answer? SPEND MORE! This would be like telling someone who had stock in Enron to invest more the day after they lost everything. Are you nuts?

    The Army, Police, and Fire Departments are not run by the government. Fortunately, one thing liberals have been incapable of doing is cutting the military budget. But the generals who dedicate their lives to defending our Constitution do very well with what we all bless.

    That is called purposeful spending. Freedom and safety as United States citizens ARE rights. Our security — the right — is a perfect example of how our responsibilities must counter that right. We have the right to be protected from criminals because we also bear the responsibility of not becoming criminals ourselves.

    If we have the “right” to health care, we then have the responsibility to buy it ourselves as well as make better lifestyle choices within our own lives to own up to that right.

    If we have the “right” to education, we have the responsibility of making sure each teacher is earning their salaries based on merit and that each student is striving harder to do well. Why should a teacher’s energy be divided up equally between one student who couldn’t care less and the other who takes their education seriously?

    Before passing out entitlements or creating entire government-funded budgets per industry, we need to return to the simple rules of self-responsibility.

    “Isn’t it amazing that even conservative politicians demonize the institution they seek to be a part of? How anyone can vote for some bat shit crazy freak like Michelle Bachman is beyond me.”

    That is because there is a difference between being a public servant like Michelle Bachmann or Sarah Palin versus being a back-door politician like B Hussein Obama or Daley or Blagojevich.

    Michelle Bachmann and Sarah Palin were successes in the free market and understood first-hand the burdens of big government.

    That is why Sarah Palin took a massive paycut as mayor when she became elected. It is why she eliminated business license fees and slashed property taxes in half. It’s why when being elected governor, she got rid of a plane and a personal chef and took much less of a per diem allowance than she was entitled to take, virtually making her the only governor in which Robert knows how much spent on per diem.

    Bachmann had her own law practice.

    What private industry was Obama involved in?

  24. Social Security and Medicare have worked well?!?

    Holy crimoney…that’s just about the funniest thing I’ve heard in a long time. If they’ve worked so well, why are the funds for these two programs nearly gone? Social Security was set up during a time when the average life expectancy of most Americans was at around 55 years–below the beginning age for most who would receive Social Security. Now that the average life expectancy is around 85, damn near everyone gets it, and each person on Social Security in their retirement years exhausts what they put into the fund within two years.

    And Medicare? There are some doctors now being forced to stop accepting Medicare because the program “works so well.” One here in Phoenix, a Mayo clinic-linked office, was in the news for having to stop accepting Medicare, and quite a few of his patients were very upset. He laid out the reasons simply and clearly: the program doesn’t pay in full and rarely pays on time. If this doctor wishes to remain in business, he needs to cut something from his expenditures.

    Robert, again you start with the “cons don’t want justice” crap. I hate to tell you this, but there is always–ALWAYS–a risk of something not going the way we’d like during a surgery. That does not automatically make it the surgeon’s fault. When are you or the blood-sucking lawyer going to realize that?

    Every human body is pretty much made the same, but many things are very different. Like fingerprints differing on each person, placement of nerves and other things differ greatly from person to person. A surgery that wouldn’t drastically alter my life may do so for another much older person for a lot of different reasons. This is why doctors are required to explain the inherent risks of a procedure and have you sign documentation that you understand those risks prior to treatment.

    Your mindset of victimhood is what has screwed this country up.

  25. Hasn’t worked?? Have you met the millions of American’s that have benefited from it?

    Steve throws in Post office out of the Blue.

    You guys are really something. Take care.

  26. “Hasn’t worked?? Have you met the millions of American’s that have benefited from it?”

    Geez, did you not read what Mel just wrote? Yes, it was fine for a while…but now that the life expectancy has increased, more people are actually taking out more than they put in throughout their prime.

    What do lawyers call it when more goes out than comes in?

    I call that insolvent. So now what? The middle-class tax hike that Obama keeps backing away from? Or do we allow people to keep more of what they earn from this point on and allow them the benefit of planning for their own retirement.

    I frankly would love to put that 7.65% deducted from m paycheck into my private IRA. All employers can take the 7.65% they have to match for social security and give it to their employees as a raise.

    Why not?

    The few who cannot handle it will have to turn to social services. But we cannot have enriched social services based on the needs of others without the private wealth to fund it.

    The post office was to give you the different of quality between one industry when part is controlled by government and the other is controlled by the private sector.

    Clearly, the private sector does a much better job.

    Take care, Mike.

  27. “How are lawsuits the number one problem?”

    In my opinion, lawsuits are not the number one problem with the healthcare system.

    The number one problem is health insurance doesn’t function as insurance.

    As I have posted here before, if my car needs gasoline, then I don’t submit a claim to my auto insurance policy. But, if my car is destroyed in an accident or by some act of God, then I will. Auto insurance is designed to cover such things.

    Health insurance doesn’t work that way. Instead of being designed to cover personal health disasters, people and the government demand it covers much more than a massive heart attack or stroke. These same people whine about how much health insurance costs and demand it covers even more medical conditions.

  28. Mike, you apparently didn’t read what I originally said. Yes, it worked great in the beginning, but people in this day and age are outliving by leaps and bounds the generations that started these programs. I have a 401K and a supplemental retirement fund because I don’t expect Social Security to still be there when I get to that age.

    Now, I’m not expecting to live any longer than 60, but better to have some plan than none at all.

    John, your idea makes too much sense. That’s why it’ll never be put into action. States like New Jersey and California have such exorbitant health insurance premiums because they regulate the health insurance companies to death. Iowa, for example, doesn’t, and it literally costs one-third the price for heath insurance there than in Hackensack.

  29. “The Army is not run by the government”

    Really? Go ahead and tell us what the G in G.I. stands for, genius…

    “We have the right to be protected from criminals because we also bear the responsibility of not becoming criminals ourselves.”

    So, we have a right to be protected from criminals from our government, they figuratively stand between us and a killer’s bullet, but we don’t have the right to be protected against disease by the same government? We’re not good enough for them to stand between us and cancer?

    Here’s something I never understood. Conservative christians pretend to espouse values, and even preface their campaigns on them. But here we have an issue where Christ Himself commanded that we care for the sick, and these people who will eagerly wait to be first in line to tell you how homosexuality is an abomination to God are the same ones who see fit to protect the profits of insurance companies over actual human beings. It’s astonishing that they can be looked at by some saps and be seen as moral creatures.

    “Before passing out entitlements or creating entire government-funded budgets per industry, we need to return to the simple rules of self-responsibility.”

    That’s all well and fine Steve, but the bottom line is people can’t prevent cancer by having personal responsibility. They can’t avoid congenital diseases by being personally responsible. All you’re doing is passing the buck, and you get away with it by dressing it up with faux accountability.

    “What private industry was Obama involved in?”

    None, and he’s a better person for it. He took his education and all the knowledge that came with it and decided to become a public servant, forgoing profits over people and gave back to the community that gave so much to him. What did Bachamnn give back to? Herself. Although babysitting Gretchen Carlson has really prepared her for life in the Senate…

    P.S. you might want to approve my other comment. It’s been sitting there for two days

  30. “That’s all well and fine Steve, but the bottom line is people can’t prevent cancer by having personal responsibility. They can’t avoid congenital diseases by being personally responsible. All you’re doing is passing the buck, and you get away with it by dressing it up with faux accountability. ”

    A person can use personal responsibility to prevent cancer but a person can prepare for that disaster by saving money in case it happens.

    As for congential defects, let private charity help those people. We are generous here. People will donate and do. The last thing we need is Uncle Sam getting into the charity business.

  31. “Really? Go ahead and tell us what the G in G.I. stands for, genius…”

    They don’t run it. They are funded with our tax dollars to provide defense. But beyond approving general requests, that is about it. Comparing the US Military to US Health Care is absolutely hideous when you see what has happened to Social Security and Medicare and comparing Fed Ex to USPS. Moreover; the military is needed to defend our freedoms.

    “So, we have a right to be protected from criminals from our government, they figuratively stand between us and a killer’s bullet, but we don’t have the right to be protected against disease by the same government? We’re not good enough for them to stand between us and cancer?”

    That wasn’t my point. I said we all have a right to be protected from criminals but our responsibility is to not become criminals.

    We all have the right to be healthy, but our responsibility is to do what we can to promote that.

    The point is, our “rights” are always countered with a “responsibility.” Which is why liberals hate freedom because as the quote at the top of this page reads, it “incurs personal responsibility, that is why so many men fear it.”

    It is virtually impossible gor the government to stand between us and a bullet, which is why it gives us rights to have guns ourselves. It is also impossible for them to stand between us and cancer.

    Also, the American Cancer Society has been around for a long time funded through private donations (although they too have moved over to the lobbyist sector). Cancer is what it is. It’s horrible. That is why people should be allowed to buy health insurance solely for catastrophies. Something the conservatives tried tackling but it simply wasn’t socialist enough for the lefties.

    “But here we have an issue where Christ Himself commanded that we care for the sick, and these people who will eagerly wait to be first in line to tell you how homosexuality is an abomination to God are the same ones who see fit to protect the profits of insurance companies over actual human beings.”

    First, that is why Christ’s influence on this country has led to a world where nobody has ever been turned down in an emergency room. It is why we all instinctually help others. It is not a case for handing commerce over to big government and allowing them to micromanage every aspect of our lives from our pocketbooks to our choice on whether or not to lie in a tanning bed without being slapped a 10% excise tax (or did you not hear about that yet?).

    The only ones who say homosexuality is an abomination are those who aren’t true Christians — since the New Testment stomps that out after Christ paid our debt for us. Some stupid people may say it and profess to be Christians to have some imaginary framework to say such things, but by now we all know how effective those folks are to anything.

    “None, and he’s a better person for it. He took his education and all the knowledge that came with it and decided to become a public servant”

    That’s not how it works. You don’t take an education and decide to say: “well, it’s time to rule the world now!” You get out there, you get experience to see what it’s like to be one of the people. You segue into public service by knowing what it is like, not by simply getting an education.

    “What did Bachamnn give back to?”

    Bachmann was a business owner and was successful at it. Once her public service is over, she’ll be able to return to it. She’s an amazing watchdog for liberty and freedom and her talent for picking bills apart and informing others who are responsible for providing an economy to debate about in the first place (real Americans who own businesses and provide jobs) has made her someone that the left understandably hates.

    “you might want to approve my other comment.”

    I haven’t seen one. I will double-check.

  32. “but by now we all know how effective those folks are to anything. ”

    You do know about Bauchman don’t you? This was one of the first things I pulled up.:

    Just last week Bachmann spoke on the House floor about the dangers of hate-crimes legislation. Protecting victims of homophobic crime, she explains, means protecting pedophiles:

    [P]eople who are practicing pedophiles would be considered protected under this legislation, but not, I understand, veterans, not, I understand, pregnant women, not, I understand, 85-year-old grandmothers would be protected under this law. But who would be protected? A pedophile, someone who considers themselves gay, someone who considers themselves transgender, someone who considers themselves a cross-dresser? That is who is protected.

    It wasn’t the first time Bachmann equated gays with child molesters. In 2004, she told a talk-radio host that same-sex marriage is dangerous because “it is our children who are the prize for this community, they are specifically targeting our children.”

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